To think there is a divide between childless/free people and parents?

[zeezeek]

And that it is mostly perpetuated by women?
As someone who didn't have DC until I was 40, indeed spent most of my adult life without them, I have seen both sides of this. Before the DDs came along I endured a variety of comments in my 20's about when we were going to have a baby, in my 30's about how I was a career girl and then when I (miraculously considering the amount of chemo I had) got pregnant at 40 a whole raft of smug comments ranging from how I didn't know what was coming to relief that I was finally joining some kind of exclusive club.

Since having the DD my life has changed, but it is no more and no less worthy than the life I had before. I don't feel superior, I don't feel wise. I still hate and despise the idea of breastfeeding. The sleepless nights weren't great, but actually the ones I had during my PhD were much worse.

In the years before I had DC I lost a lot of female friends when they had children. It wasn't my choice. I've never been a demanding friend. They decided that I didn't fit into their lives anymore so ditched me. These days my closest friends are male (some parents, some not; some whose DW/DP I know, some I've never met). Some of the women who ditched me years ago have tried to return to my circle - seemingly with the sole intention of smugly telling me how much trouble I have ahead of me as my DDs get older.

People are childless/child free for a variety of reasons - infertility, choice, leaving it too late, not finding the right person.

It doesn't make them less of a person - in some ways they are more empathic, sympathetic and understanding. Many people can tell stories of inspirational friends, relatives, teachers who didn't have children but who inspired, loved and supported DC in their lives. Why do some women allow this divide to happen? Becoming a parent is life changing - but so are a lot of other things....eg surviving a life threatening illness or completing a physical challenge. We all contribute to society in different ways - having children is just one of them.

Sorry for the rant.

[morelikeguidelines]

fatmomma I actually thought your post was brilliant, and very thoughtful.

[Baddz]

Fatmomma.
I think describing women as a gender as simply breeders is incredibly offensive.
Some of the most famous/greatest women in history were childless.
I'm sad for you if you think breeding is the pinnacle of your life.

[morelikeguidelines]

Oooh Baddz we disagreed!

I read her post as meaning that we, as humans and mammals, evolved as we did for the "purpose" of carrying on our species. If biology can be said to have a purpose.

That's how we exist in nature, iyswim. It's bound to affect the way we act when we do reproduce and our feelings towards our role as parents.

But that's not saying that, as an intelligent species, the other things we don't are not equally worthwhile. We also have the ability to be kind and selfless as humans, which other species are arguably unable to.

It's arguably a selfish act to have children nowadays (I have two) as the impact on the environment of more and more humans is a negative one. But it's certainly our biological instinct.

[Baddz]

Hmm.
Not sure about that...
I dont really know why I had kids :) I'm not sure biological imperative had much to do with it.
I agree with you that having children is an inherently selfish thing to do though.
Absolutely.

[Millionprammiles]

I think I'd go insane without my childless friends.
Post-children, meeting up with a friend who also has children in tow is basically a playdate. I don't count it as socialising.

The only friends I've lost touch with since having a child are those who will only ever meet up with their children in tow (despite having a partner willing to given them a free night) or simply don't have time for me at all as they're now buried in SAHM/school socialising.
Either way we have little in common, despite both being parents.

[NurNochKurzDieWeltRetten]

I found that some friends with successful careers were hugely sneery about the decision to have children and especially the decision to stay at home with them. Somehow, for some women, if motherhood becomes any more a significant part of your identity than getting a kitten, you become retrograde, backward, dull, a cop out...

The people who have this attitude tend to be the ones who, even if they have children, make it a point of pride to be unchanged, to go back to work after 3 months, go on lots of child free breaks, insist housework takes 5 minutes a week (because nobody is ever in the house or because they're ignoring the cleaner who comes 4 hours a week)...

The problem is that children/ no children/ sah/ part time/ full time work are all valid and sometimes not even choices but just how life's worked out combined with economic necessity.

Women do judge each other though (not all women - and men judge women too, men seem far less interested in judging other men for their child related choices) sometimes having a blind spot for best friends but not beyond that.

It can be hard to stay friends with people who you've heard expressing the opinion that mothers lose their status as women once they have messy inconvenient children (especially male ones) at their heels, and should get to the back of the line, get out of women's spaces, wait, stay away, apologise, go elsewhere, oh and get back to work in a more senior position than you had before, and spend hours in the gym ensuring your body doesnt give away the secret of having given birth, otherwise you're "just" a mum who spends all day changing nappies and watching cbeebies. Despising breast feeding wouldn't help either

There is some kind of deep rooted problem underlying the way women label themselves and others as childfree/ mother sahm/ working mum. It's the need to label that's the problem - men do it less, with the exception of sahd s, who are still comparatively rare.

I don't know what the answer is, and some people rise above it (often when all their peers are doing similar to them perhaps) but the problem is the labeling and resulting defensiveness IMO.

[zazzie]

I had my son quite late and I never felt a divide between those that had children and myself. Our son is disabled and I think that has created a divide because our lives are so different.

[morelikeguidelines]

I think I felt a huge biological "need" to have kids, which suddenly hit me at 28, out of the blue. It wasn't rational and was certainly selfish.

I admire people who, for instance , have "chosen" (although we never know the circumstances ) to dedicate themselves to teaching, or being a doctor, or whatever at the expense of having their own kids. Not to say you can't do these jobs and have kids, but someone who throws themselves into teaching the kids of others rather than passing on their own dna is certainly doing something worthwhile.

On a different part of the post- It is of course true that people in all situations - parents, child free people, men and women etc - can be smug and self satisfied. But we all notice it more when we think they are being smug about something we don't have/share.

zazzie that must be hard for you. I do know where you are coming from as I had a child who was very sick as a baby and needed two.major operations, and I certainly felt a divide from the rest of the nct mums. As though people didn't want to know about that experience.

[morelikeguidelines]

zazzie, not that I am saying it is the same, of course. Just that I can see that what to you are saying is true.

[patienceisvirtuous]

I think this thread turned into childfree v parents and ignored the childless in the main.

I fit into the latter category. Life is bloody hard emotionally, a permanent struggle if you like. I have been mainly ditched by my friends who are mothers, that's just the way it is though. I work full-time, their evenings are spent bathing/feeding/bedtime routines etc. On weekends they spend time with our other friends with children at the park/at parties etc. I do not fit anymore. I get that.

I do manage to have a few text exchanges and do a coffee meet up every now and then. My friends categorically do not get how tough childlessness is. That's not their fault I guess (how would they know?) but some do massively lack empathy. It is definitely a case of 'I'm alright jack'.

My friends assume (despite me telling them otherwise) that I lead a self-indulgent, easy life of nights out, shopping sprees and holidays. Instead I quietly battle depression, and lead a modest, quiet life with dp, my wider family and my cats.

The divide between us is huge. I feel sad about it but that's just the way it is. I am now concentrating on trying to lead a happy life while working towards our happy ending. If/when we have dc I hope to make new friends.

It's difficult isn't it and there isn't a simple answer. Some friendships will outlast others...

[patienceisvirtuous]

Ps fatmomma I found your post insensitive and upsetting and the quick nod to the miscarriers patronising.

How nice for you to live in your magical, technicolor land of Oz.

[fourtothedozen]

But should fatmomma be silenced from speaking her truth lest she upsets some individuals?

I enjoyed reading that post, and feel very similar. Having children means I am no longer the same person that I was before. I have been transformed by having children. And I am sorry if that offends, but would you deny mothers to speak about this on what is after all a parenting site.

[AnyoneforTurps]

I don't have kids of my own (though have been involved in bringing up DC) . Perhaps I have been incredibly lucky, but I don't feel it's an issue with my friends who are mums. Of course, the practicalities of friendship change when you have kids - I used to have the care of 3 DC under-6 so I fully understand that - but the essence of the friendship is unchanged.

What does drive me insane is meeting strangers at a party or work event. I'll ask about their DC and listen to tales of choosing school etc - that's fine by me - it's a part of life. But when they find out I don't have DC, they can't be arsed to ask me anything about my life. This has happened repeatedly and it is infuriating & lazy. It's as if DC are the only common ground any woman could have.

[Amummyatlast]

Baddz
*I think describing women as a gender as simply breeders is incredibly offensive.
Some of the most famous/greatest women in history were childless.
I'm sad for you if you think breeding is the pinnacle of your life.
*

Having a child is the pinnacle of my life and don't you dare feel sorry for me. I have a successful career, money, etc., and yet when I faced a life as a childless women I suspected that there was absolutely nothing I could do that would make up for not having a child. And when I was lucky enough to have a child, I found out I was right. She was the best thing I could ever do.

Now, I'm certainly not saying I'm a better person for feeling that way. But it's how I feel, and it's a valid feeling.

Despite the years of infertility, I was actually one of the first of our friends to have a child, so I don't have the problem of a divide. As others have said, I don't have that much to talk about. Pre-baby I could have bored people about my job. Post-baby I can bore people about my job, or discuss DD. Most of the time I choose DD as I'm talking to other parents.

[Ragwort]

patience - sorry to say but your 'friends' don't sound like real friends at all. The fact that they can't understand that you have depression says it all really.

I have lots of friends who are 'child free' - either by choice or circumstance - I make time to see people I enjoy spending time with (regardless of whether or not they have children), there's plenty of 'friends' I have met through toddler groups/school gate etc who bore me to tears and then I use the excuse that I am doing 'family' stuff rather than go and see them. .

You can't get on with everyone in life and I think it's far too simplistic to say that there is a 'barrier' between mothers and child free women.

[Baddz]

I love my children.
They are wonderful.
I think most mothers feel that way?
But I sincerely hope that at the end of my life people can say more about me than "wife and mother of 2".
That's is only a part of who I am.
An important part.
But not the whole.
I'm glad you feel having a child is the pinnacle of your life.
I don't.

[patienceisvirtuous]

I don't think fatmomma should be silenced at all. Waxing lyrical about how wonderful parenting is, is entirely appropriate on a parenting site.

In the context of this thread though, and the fact that there are childless people on here (I am currently pregnant for the third time (13 weeks - although things are not looking great, again) so I hope this makes me eligible to comment on a parenting site too, and that my experiences/opinions are valid) I think the 'women are born to carry' is an insensitive thing to say, especially when giving a cursory nod to people who miscarry.

I also don't think it's mandatory to be sensitive on here either, I just wanted to convey that I found those comments upsetting.

[Bubblesinthesummer]

fatmomma you have imo said some insensitive things. How do you think it makes women feel who can't or don't have children feel when you say things like women are born to carry.

It hurts and is devaluing those that very well may have has to make hard decisions or have gone through terrible situations.

As someone who has had miscarriages and a sleeping girl are you saying that because I can't have children I am inferior.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion but maybe sometimes think about how it may come accross.

[Ineedtimeoff]

fatmomma I loved your post. I feel exactly the same.

Most of my friends are married or with long term partners. I'm on my own. Some of the parents that I'm friends with meet up as couples sometimes with their children sometimes without. In the evenings I'm often lonely. Once DD is in bed I'm on my own with no chance of going out. Actually, more often than not I'm knackered and don't want to go out.

What's my point? I guess, if I wished, I could feel that there is a divide between couples and singles and that at times I feel excluded because of that. There are many different ways to live that can be divisive if we allow them to be. Parents vs childless, couples vs single, working vs SAHP, breast feeders vs formula the list could go on!

[Ineedtimeoff]

It's undeniable that, from an evolutionary point of view, women are designed for breading. It's a basic biological function.

[Baddz]

I am more than simply my uterus.
I have value over and above my capacity for breeding.

[OneFlewOverTheDodosNest]

Some people view other people's choices as a direct judgement on their own. As a consequence they like to surround themselves with people who made the same choices as them to feel validated - and they then bitch at other people who are different.

[Lottapianos]

So fatmomma, what do you make of women who have chosen not to have children? If, as women, our purpose on earth is to carry and bear children, what is my purpose? I have chosen not to be a mother, as have many other women. Do you think that we're all in denial and are secretly pining for a baby of our own?

That was a lovely post OP and thank you for writing it. I find that there are parents I get along with very well, and parents I can stand to be around, same as any other subset of society! Some parents are most definitely incredibly smug, and the more they try to shove it down my throat, the more it just seems like they're trying to justify their own decision. I've had a few rotten comments from people when they find out I dont' have children and am not planning on having any, but also some very supportive lovely comments. I think most people don't particularly give a fig though, which is fine by me!

[Amummyatlast]

I don't particularly care what other people have to say about me. I care about my and my family's happiness. 'Breeding' (which is such an offensive term btw) was something I couldn't do and it made me unhappy. I foresaw a life of unhappiness that all my qualifications, job success, etc. wouldn't fix. So if the universe had given me a choice, I would have swapped my successes for a child. If all people say when I die is that I was a mum, I'm fine with that.

[OneFlewOverTheDodosNest]

It's undeniable that, from an evolutionary point of view, women are designed for breading. It's a basic biological function.

Actually surely breeding is the most basic biological function - so if we've evolved beyond that basis it means that we are designed for significantly more than that.

How about for understanding, and learning and creativity and discovery - all things that are exclusive to the human race apart from any other species?

We're not queen bees with the solitary purpose of reproducing for the future of the hive - we have evolved high capabilities which give us choice and purpose beyond passing on our genes and thank goodness otherwise we'd never have left the trees.