To think there is a divide between childless/free people and parents?

[zeezeek]

And that it is mostly perpetuated by women?
As someone who didn't have DC until I was 40, indeed spent most of my adult life without them, I have seen both sides of this. Before the DDs came along I endured a variety of comments in my 20's about when we were going to have a baby, in my 30's about how I was a career girl and then when I (miraculously considering the amount of chemo I had) got pregnant at 40 a whole raft of smug comments ranging from how I didn't know what was coming to relief that I was finally joining some kind of exclusive club.

Since having the DD my life has changed, but it is no more and no less worthy than the life I had before. I don't feel superior, I don't feel wise. I still hate and despise the idea of breastfeeding. The sleepless nights weren't great, but actually the ones I had during my PhD were much worse.

In the years before I had DC I lost a lot of female friends when they had children. It wasn't my choice. I've never been a demanding friend. They decided that I didn't fit into their lives anymore so ditched me. These days my closest friends are male (some parents, some not; some whose DW/DP I know, some I've never met). Some of the women who ditched me years ago have tried to return to my circle - seemingly with the sole intention of smugly telling me how much trouble I have ahead of me as my DDs get older.

People are childless/child free for a variety of reasons - infertility, choice, leaving it too late, not finding the right person.

It doesn't make them less of a person - in some ways they are more empathic, sympathetic and understanding. Many people can tell stories of inspirational friends, relatives, teachers who didn't have children but who inspired, loved and supported DC in their lives. Why do some women allow this divide to happen? Becoming a parent is life changing - but so are a lot of other things....eg surviving a life threatening illness or completing a physical challenge. We all contribute to society in different ways - having children is just one of them.

Sorry for the rant.

[saintlyjimjams]

I lost more friends having a severely disabled child (who admittedly isn't easy to be around) than having children. I am grateful for those (with or without children - childless men have been great for this - no expectations on their part) who have stuck around.

The only issue I've for just having children is from one friend who dumped me (met her after I had 3 children) who became increasingly obsessed about how having children must have a detrimental effect on my relationship with dh. It was odd - she had to repeatedly tell me how strong her relationship was with her DH compared to those who had children. I assume she had her own issues, nothing to do with me as such. But apart from her having children didn't make a difference. I was never one to go out every night of the week though, & friends are scattered around the world so used to chatting to them by phone (now social media)

[AnyoneforTurps]

I often think my childless friends project what they think people are thinking on themselves

As a childless person, I do agree with that. When I look at internet forums about being child free, I am amazed at the constant slights & insults CF people describe. Unless I am incredibly insensitive and just don't notice, this has not been my experience. My friends are great and accept me for who I am. Occasionally strangers and casual acquaintances are insensitive and nosy but, most of the time, it's just not an issue.

[achieve6]

The fact that childless and childfree are being used interchangeably is confusing the heck out of me

I also had no idea that weird spat was going on, I was focussing on the OP post!

going back to the OP comment, "why do women allow this divide to happen" I think it happens on a superficial level and not in close friendships. Media stuff should be ignored as much as possible in my humble opinion

[Katie2001]

I saw a comment in the papers about Mumsnet so I came to see what it's all about and I've joined specifically to respond to this thread. I don't have children, the time was never right and I was never in the right relationship to have them. I never will now and I regret that. I have the utmost respect for people with children, it's the hardest job in the world. The only divide I find is between the childless and those with children who feel they should be allowed anywhere and everywhere at all times of the day and evening. Hope this isn't too controversial but as a 'childless' I thought I'd put my pennyworth in!

[morelikeguidelines]

Hi Katie. Welcome to mumsnet! (in a nice way). Wanted you to feel welcomed - aibu is quite an argumentative place

Just came on to check on thread (in was here a few pages back).

It has moved on to more of an argument since I was here!

baddz that is very sad re funeral. What an awful way to sum up someone's life. I do find that funeral eulogies can be awful when the priest /minister /whoever doesn't really know the person. But this one sounds as if he a. Wasn't even trying and b. Had an odd view of mothers.

[Lottapianos]

Yes welcome Katie. There are lots of childfree folk on here so don't worry about being an odd one out! Its a great place to discuss all sorts of stuff with other adults

morelike - understatement of the year about AIBU!

[Indole]

I don't think AddToBasket was anywhere near as unpleasant as Toast (only weighing in as I think AddTo is getting a rather undeserved hard time).

[Indole]

PS hi Katie, welcome to Mumsnet.

[Reubs15]

Hmm I think if your friendship is strong enough it won't matter. Most of my friends are childless and male and we're still great friends. I also have new mum friends and I love it.
The fact that you hate and despise breastfeeding offends me slightly as I think it is each persons choice.

[Bunbaker]

"I often think my childless friends project what they think people are thinking on themselves."

Before DD was born I used to find that some people who had children used to do the same. They just assumed that I thought my life was incomplete without children. This was mainly the older generation though, especially MIL. She felt that her only purpose in life was to get married and have children, and thought it odd that I didn't share that view.

[LazyLohan]

Welcome to Mumsnet Katie (it's not the hardest job in the world though, I'd rather look after my little boy than do shift in A&E)

[RedDaisyRed]

Yes, it annoys me too. I am the other way round. Had first baby at 22 when working full time as a trainee lawyer (no long maternity leaves in those days) and always worked full time. Lawyer friends had babies at nearer 40 than 20 so very different - although it did give me a lot in common with older lawyers and clients. I have never wanted to talk to women just about babies anyway. I want to talk about the economy or politics or anthropology or a heap of other subjects and nor do I think everyone should hvae chldren. Entirely a personal choice.

[lampygirl]

Skipped a few pages where it descended into argument...

I'm child free by choice, but a lot of my friends have children. I've not found any negativity either way from my friends so maybe I've been lucky and other posters unlucky there.

I've found it a lot harder at various places of work to deal with being child free. Things like being trumped for holiday time by those with childcare. Thankfully I work with three child free guys now so that problem has gone, but for a while I was resentful of parents. Like my friends were telling me they were still the same people, could still talk about current affairs etc and go for coffee or a pub lunch on a Sunday (none of us are big drinkers), yet workplaces were telling me they were superior. I can only imagine that this sort of thing would be even worse for those who haven't chosen to be childless.

[Only1scoop]

Lampy I understand where you are coming from with the work leave thing.

I have worked numerous Christmas days and once when one of the parents was rostered on ....her first in 10 years she said "there's enough people without kids here to ensure I should never have to work it"

Still makes me fume til this day. I didn't have a DC at the time....have had one late in life and I find that attitude even more infuriating now.

[EggOnTheFloor]

I had my children quite young so unlike friends of my age I had the transition to parenthood quite early on. However having continued interests outside of my children - such as work and education mean that I have friends who are in many different stages of life, some who have children, some who don't. I would hate to think that one party having children should be a reason for division between a friendship. Don't get me wrong, logistically when babies are small it can be harder to keep up socially, but actually good friends will weather good times and bad, and should be there for each other through different life stages - I've got friends who are retiring and some who are young newly weds so a real mix.

And why le my children are important to me, they aren't my sole definition of me as a person. I make time for good friends as and when we can meet up. I do talk about them as part of my life but also talk about work/studies/other news. I would hate for my childless friends to think that I was somehow better than them just because I made the personal decision to procreate. I don't feel like that and that's maybe why I am able to have such a mixed bag of friends and certainly don't think that I am better than them in any way, I just try and enjoy our friendships and the wine and peace and quiet

[EggOnTheFloor]

That should read while

[RedDaisyRed]

The work issue is difficult. My older 3 children (all in work now) like to come on holiday with me and the younger 2 who are at school and can only go away in school holidays so they are competing with others at work who have their own children for the same times. It seems fair. Eg one children they all alternate a work year by year as to getting between Christmas and NY off whether they have children or not.

[EggOnTheFloor]

Also to add I've never tried to use my children to my advantage in the workplace and have been happy to fit in with work rotas/holiday schedules as per any employment. I do have some needs related to my child (who is disabled) however that has not affected other employees as the nature of my work meant that I had to make up my hours so my work wouldn't burden anyone else. The onus was on me, not on my colleagues which is how it should be.

[TTTroxy]

I think those with families and children don't realise how isolating it can be to be without when all your friends start to have children.

I haven't lost touch with my friends who have children but they have found it a lot easier to expand their social circle than I have. For example they now go on holiday with all their NCT friends whereas before children single friends would have been invited. Some of my friendship group organise get togethers but only include the couples with children. I only hear about it afterwards. It's not something that bothers me that much as I am fairly comfortable with my own company but it is a reminder that I am becoming more isolated.

The idea that all your single friends are enjoying a mad social life isn't true once you get over a certain age. Other people in the same boat are few and far between.

[MewlingQuim]

I think YANBU OP except about the breastfeeding

I spent a long time childless, not by choice. One of the most upsetting things about infertility was being excluded from conversations because people who had children seemed to think I shouldn't have an opinion or wouldn't be interested in any discussions about children. I had work colleagues deliberately move away from me when they were talking about their kids

Now I make sure that my childless friends are still included. They are welcome to leave the conversation if they are bored with it but as far as I am concerned their opinion is as valid as any parent's. Childless people may be uncles or aunts or have friends with a child, and at the very least have experienced being one. I am happy to discuss any aspect of parenting with them and I will never say "you don't know what it's like because you don't have children"

[Lottapianos]

TTTroxy, I very much agree about the sense of isolation when friends start having children. Parents seem to develop a huge social circle through NCT or baby groups or nursery parents or whatever. Yet they are nowhere near as available as they used to be to you, their childless / free friend. There can be a sense of 'where do I fit in?' Childfree people are just normal people, we're not all social butterflies! When it seems like everyone is having babies, it can be very hard to find your 'tribe'

[zeezeek]

MewlingQuim - I agree with you. There are very few people in the world who are so isolated that they will never come into contact with children - either through friends and family, so why should they be excluded from conversations about something that everyone has experienced to some extent?