To think there is a divide between childless/free people and parents?

[zeezeek]

And that it is mostly perpetuated by women?
As someone who didn't have DC until I was 40, indeed spent most of my adult life without them, I have seen both sides of this. Before the DDs came along I endured a variety of comments in my 20's about when we were going to have a baby, in my 30's about how I was a career girl and then when I (miraculously considering the amount of chemo I had) got pregnant at 40 a whole raft of smug comments ranging from how I didn't know what was coming to relief that I was finally joining some kind of exclusive club.

Since having the DD my life has changed, but it is no more and no less worthy than the life I had before. I don't feel superior, I don't feel wise. I still hate and despise the idea of breastfeeding. The sleepless nights weren't great, but actually the ones I had during my PhD were much worse.

In the years before I had DC I lost a lot of female friends when they had children. It wasn't my choice. I've never been a demanding friend. They decided that I didn't fit into their lives anymore so ditched me. These days my closest friends are male (some parents, some not; some whose DW/DP I know, some I've never met). Some of the women who ditched me years ago have tried to return to my circle - seemingly with the sole intention of smugly telling me how much trouble I have ahead of me as my DDs get older.

People are childless/child free for a variety of reasons - infertility, choice, leaving it too late, not finding the right person.

It doesn't make them less of a person - in some ways they are more empathic, sympathetic and understanding. Many people can tell stories of inspirational friends, relatives, teachers who didn't have children but who inspired, loved and supported DC in their lives. Why do some women allow this divide to happen? Becoming a parent is life changing - but so are a lot of other things....eg surviving a life threatening illness or completing a physical challenge. We all contribute to society in different ways - having children is just one of them.

Sorry for the rant.

[Garlick]

It's interesting, too, that 25% of women have PCOS. Also, something like 70% of high-achieving women in sports and in business have PCOS.

Does the hormonal profile of PCOS encourage high achievement? Or does being childfree permit greater achievement? Nobody knows and, as far as I'm aware, no-one's researching it.

[Lottapianos]

You're right Garlick, there are lots of us around, its just difficult to find each other sometimes!

[MitMopse]

YANBU. Great post OP those people do exist. Luckily no friends of mine. I almost felt that some treat you more like a 'real''complete' person once you join the mummy club. It's the same lot that are super smug when they get married before their single/unmarried peers I've found. Life is not a bloody competition and these things are not compulsory! Mini rant over

[AnyoneforTurps]

something like 70% of high-achieving women in sports and in business have PCOS


Really? First I've heard of that (as a GP). What's your source?

[morelikeguidelines]

I have pcos but not child free.

It was diagnosed at a scan when I was having trouble ttc. I don't have the usual symptoms except for murderously painful periods.

I would like to think I was high flying but I guess that totally depends on your perspective! I've never heard that statistic though.

[morelikeguidelines]

(In other words I doubt it's true)

[Garlick]

It was on a blog and linked to an American paper. I don't know how true it is. However, my endocrinologist did say women with PCOS tend to be more dynamic, go-getting, have more explosive strength and build muscle faster - and to have a higher sex drive! It was his specialism but this was a long time ago. (All those things were true of me. I bloody deserved some compensations, too!)

[BocaDeTrucha]

If we're talking about being smug, I have to mention a colleague /friend who had the nerve to say I was finally "a real woman now" once I came back to work after maternity leave.

[ToastedOrFresh]

AddtoBasket - thank you for your comments. The fact that I touched a nerve with you really makes me smile.

I would prefer it if you didn't describe me as either bitter or immature. Thank you.

[TamzinGrey]

Ps fatmomma I found your post insensitive and upsetting and the quick nod to the miscarriers patronising.
How nice for you to live in your magical, technicolor land of Oz.

This with bells on.

Bells on from here too. An insensitive post on a thread that would obviously attract childless people because of it's title. And yes - I know that Mumsnet is primarily aimed at parents, but some of us came here thinking that we were about to "join the club" but it didn't work out for various, mostly tragic reasons.

[Lottapianos]

Jeez Boca, that's grim. People like this definitely do exist. Opinions like that reveal waaaaaaay more about the person expressing them than they realise

[UptheChimney]

Oh, I had someone say "Welcome to the world" to me not my boy, after the birth of my DS.

It was kindly meant, but appalling. As if I hadn't fully existed before giving birth!

[AddToBasket]

Toast - you didn't touch a nerve with me, I can't see why you would think that. I was saying that I recognise what you are saying from what other friends have said to me.

And yes, you want to touch a nerve, and that would make you smile, and that's exactly the point that I was making. Childless friends I know are hurt/angry/feeling excluded and want to snarl out at parents. They'd love to think they've upset a smug mother and made her feel bad about being a parent. (But lack the experience to know how absolutely impossible that is to do. No mother would care.)

[patienceisvirtuous]

My cousin said 'I felt like a real woman after I gave birth to my two boys, and you will too'.

This was after I had already mc'd twice.

I said 'I already do'

She said, 'you will see what I mean'.

I said 'I might not.'

Sigh.

[patienceisvirtuous]

addto you obviously have crap friends then, childless or otherwise. Either that or you're making nasty generalisations.

And your last paragraph is really nasty.

[Only1scoop]

Awful isn't it....

At this 'real women' absolute crap.

I adore my dd ....but Jeeeez parents who talk about dc are incredibly dull IMO.

[WineIsMyMainVice]

What an articulate and thought provoking post! Thank you op!
I can relate to so much of what you said.

[AddToBasket]

I've been neither nasty nor generalising. It wasn't me that was 'smiling' because they imagined they'd touched a nerve.

I have several close friends who are angry - and I understand why. It is a visceral hurt and they do bitch about parents/mothers with feeling. That's apparent in Toast's posts and I called it for what it is. She doesn't really, deep down, think the 'majority' of mothers are self-centred and shitty and entitled. She just wants to lash out.

[ToastedOrFresh]

AddToBasket - I accept that you are deliberately goading now, and smug with it. However, the last sentence in your most recent post is nonsensical. Like you know what I think. I mean really.

You really are up yourself, aren't you ?

[patienceisvirtuous]

Still nasty. You were doing exactly as Toast did and we're trying to touch a nerve.

How come you think you understand your childless friends' feelings and motivations, yet they 'lack the experience to know how absolutely impossible it is for them to upset a mother'?

Anyway, I'll leave you and Toast to it but don't be disingenuous by saying you weren't being nasty, you absolutely were.

[patienceisvirtuous]

*were trying

[Bunbaker]

"But I sincerely hope that at the end of my life people can say more about me than "wife and mother of 2".
That's is only a part of who I am.
An important part.
But not the whole.
I'm glad you feel having a child is the pinnacle of your life.
I don't."

Baddz Are you me?

When I had DD just after our 19th wedding anniversary, some people, including MIL, said "I knew you always wanted a child"

Well, actually, no I didn't. I was quite ambivalent about parenthood. I did have infertility problems, but it was a non issue for me as I am not particularly maternal and didn't yearn for a child. I saw infertility as an opportunity to do things that would be difficult or impossible to do with children in tow, and had a nice life thank you very much.

No doubt these are the type who feel that their lives are defined by parenthood and feel worthless by not having children. IMO there is much more to life than procreating.

Having DD after being a selfish adult for so long was like having someone taking a sledgehammer to my old life. When she developed serious medical issues it was a double whammy and I really struggled with parenthood, being housebound for over a year.

Fortunately the medical issues resolved themselves and life improved dramatically.

I love DD to bits, but I still don't get why parenthood is the pinnacle of someone's life. It is part of my life, a major part, but not the only part.

Through all of this I managed to stay friends with both child free friends and friends who had children. I don't define people by their parenthood choices, I just like people I have similar values with and the fact they have children or not is irrelevant.

[ladygaga1980]

I don't have children but my life is very rich and fulfilling. I think that what gives meaning to life is the quality and depth of interpersonal relationships and to need and feel needed.

I need and feel needed by all of my friends and family. I think I would lose out to an extent if I had to put most/all of my 'relationship energy' into one person (a child). It feels a bit like I would be putting all of my eggs in one basket (so to speak), as many children grow up/move away and aren't necessarily close to their parents as adults.

My life is also already technicolor, and has never been black and white...

[ladygaga1980]

Oh and my best friends are:

• a woman has 5 children, one of which I am godmother to
  
• a gay man who doesn't have kids
  
• my 19 year old niece who is on the autism spectrum and whom I recently supported with an unplanned pregnancy
  
• my mother who lost her own mother at age 12 and is not very maternal herself for various reasons
  

We all learn about life from different perspectives and can enrich one another through diversity of experiences rather than all being the same. I consider myself very fortunate indeed.