'The only way we've sorted a sleep prob in this house is controlled crying' - fuck off!!

[Smataya]

I text friend who has two under two how hard it's been of late with Ds 11 months just not sleeping. I've explained before he is just not a sleeper and likes to be close at night, wakes a lot for milk and that I'm doing attachment parenting. She knows how against cc I am and I will not ever leave my child to cry. Ds has not slept for longer than an hour since he was 5 months which is starting to take its toll, but as I say, he's just not a sleeper and it's tough.

Why the f is she doing this pa bull shit about cc over text?? She's been like eerr have you tried sleep training to me before and I just don't want to hear it. Her two sleep through and I just find it smug- she's got lucky and now claiming its all down to cc. Am I justified in texting back to say ftfo to the far side of fuck?!?!

Lennon, you seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the knowledge of posters who can see you are posting rubbish who disagree with you. It isn't just you who is capable of reading research, but thankfully many other people can read it correctly and in context rather than just picking and choosing bits to suit their argument.

MrsD the voice of reason.
I too despise the plight of Romanian orphans to prove a point. How fucking distasteful, not to mention lazy.

Lennon80, you can also sod off with the Gina Ford references. I think she's as much of a numpty as you are.

Lennin, strangely you are the same only person who has mentioned Gina Ford, I am AP, baby wearing, mooncup using leftie extended breastfeeder and never followed GF in the slightest. I suggest YOU are the one that needs to be educated in revised CC, Ferber is a good place to start (the revised where he recommends starting at 12 months and covers co sleeping).

I suggest you also read other people's posts, we are not all matrons of Romanian orphanages but mothers who live our children very much but are being spread very thin.

If CC was really the evil you seem to suggest then surely there would be public health campaigns agamst it, no?

Ha ha, Lennon, although possibly Freudian slip

Mrs D - I hope you have not taken a child from the local authority on the premise you will therapeutically parent him only to subject him to CC. That would indeed be irresponsible and reinforce his internal working model that adults do not respond to his needs.

What a horrible, horrible post.

I never managed to get my daughter to sleep properly - I was like you, OP, and too close to the situation to see clearly.

When she was nine months old I was back at work. It was an eleven mile drive, with less than a mile on the motorway. One day after being woken nine times in the night for a feed, I got onto the motorway, saw no cars were in front of me and thought, "I'll just have a little sleep."

Luckily I realised what had happened, pulled onto the hard shoulder and waited until I felt a bit better.

I think if you always breastfeed your child to sleep and always sleep with your child in the same bed, you will always have these problems with sleep.

When I had my son, I did controlled crying. He was a boy who didn't like it if I was in a different room - he was a limpet. The first night it took 50 minutes of crying until he fell asleep. The second night he yelled for 30 minutes. The third night he lay there chatting to himself and went off to sleep quite happily. No problems after that.

Anyway OP good luck. Put your little one in bed with you and get some sleep.

But wait, neither are getting a healthy amount of sleep are they? I'm well researched thank you and cab post for myself without copying and pasting large parts of websites which aren't actually referencing what is being discussed on this thread, so thanks I will yawn away

"Babies cannot self-soothe" - now, does that mean a distressed baby can't soothe themselves? Because that's not the same as a baby being unable to fall asleep and stay asleep by themselves.

If my babies were distressed, they needed me to soothe them. But I could teach them to fall asleep without feeding or rocking and they could get themselves back to sleep in the night without my input.

'' I am AP, baby wearing, mooncup using leftie extended breastfeeder and never followed GF in the slightest.'' - No you wouldn't do would you given Gina Ford is opposed to everything AP.. she has feck all to do with it. She is the anti attachment parent.

Lennon - that is a vile thing to say. Shame on you. Perhaps a little less judgment of others might be in order

Call it controlled comforting instead then. How can you know it wont work if you wont try it. It might it might not. Why ask her opinion then if you know this is what she will say. Chose your counsel. Our dd took ages to setlle and she is the same now, she will but controlled comforting worked for her.

I see this has kicked off then......

Lennon, have you read your was and peace style posts and the links you've posted? You know there's references in there to babies up to 6 months? And this baby is 11 months?

My kids both GinaForded themselves by about 8 months

OP . Parenting is tough.

Firstly I'd like to say that I was fairly AP with DS, not that I knew that's what it was at the time. I just went by what felt right and what worked, and if something didn't work, I tried something else.

But my parenting style with DD is very different because she's a very different baby. For her if I don't put her down alone when she's tired and sing a little lullaby (which makes her drop to sleep in approx 2mins), then she screams blue murder and arches away, basically fights as much as she can. She's been like that since a few days old. I initially parented her the same as DS, but it didn't work for her. She is an incredibly happy and smiley baby, who loves cuddles and attention when awake but not to go to sleep.

My point is I totally changed how I settled a baby to sleep because although cuddles was the only was for DS, it was completely wrong for DD. They are born with some of their characteristics.

Whatever your doing to settle your DS at the moment, isn't working for him. He is waking every time he enters the light sleep fase of the sleep cycle, instead of going back into a deeper sleep. Do you honestly think that's good for him? It's really not. You need to start trying different methods. There are lots of methods in between fully AP and CIO. It's about finding what works for your DS.

Also please don't be taken in by people who claim studys show short periods of crying cause the same as severe neglect. The only studies have shown that children whose basic needs aren't met (being fed, changed, generally played with and cared for) and are just left in isolation and ignored all the time are harmed. Those studies relate to neglect. A child in a loving home, who is fed, changed, played with and cared for but is occasionally left for very short periods of time to cry when all basic needs have been met are in no way related to the studies. It is a completely different thing.

Also remember that it is only 2or so generations ago when babies basic needs were met, then they were left in their pram until the next feed 4hours later. It was the norm. This is stricter/harsher than would be done now yet there wasnt a complete generation showing the same characteristics as severely neglected children, was there?

So Google, look for different methods and then come up with your own methods to try. Just don't listen to people comparing serious neglect to a couple of mins crying.

He maybe too old now but my own version of pickup/putdown helped DS.

OP, I feel really sorry for you because sleep deprivation is (literally) a killer.

CC for us = 2 mins crying, pat and leave, 4 minutes crying, pat and leave. Repeat in two minute increments until it stops.

The longest we went with DD was up to 8 minutes and up to 12 minutes with DS. DD slept with just one night wake for a feed until she dropped that herself and DS started sleeping through. DS was a little bugger though and just liked me to be an all-you-can-eat buffet

CIO was not an option for us. I couldn't leave a child to just wear themselves out with crying which is how I understand it works.

All that being said, I don't think I could forgive anybody that hurt my children because they had caused an accident while driving so sleep deprived.

Ducky my mum used CIO with my brother and I, not CC. I'm 26 now - when should my therapy start?

Hahaha at SELFISH MONSTER. Bless ya ducky.

Have been with the baby, got q little shut eye.

Absolutely horrified by lennons posts towards mrs d. Just disgraceful. Please don't support me by attacking others like that.

Mrs d, thank you for your helpful posts.

I am too gone to reply to each poster but I am thinking a bit more about the 'science' of all of this. I'm starting to be more persuaded that I might have some of this wrong.... Dh will be pleased! Just don't know what to face first. Regarding the recommendation for the millpond clinic, do people think its worth it?

sarah ockwell smith homeopath from her nlog