'The only way we've sorted a sleep prob in this house is controlled crying' - fuck off!!

[Smataya]

I text friend who has two under two how hard it's been of late with Ds 11 months just not sleeping. I've explained before he is just not a sleeper and likes to be close at night, wakes a lot for milk and that I'm doing attachment parenting. She knows how against cc I am and I will not ever leave my child to cry. Ds has not slept for longer than an hour since he was 5 months which is starting to take its toll, but as I say, he's just not a sleeper and it's tough.

Why the f is she doing this pa bull shit about cc over text?? She's been like eerr have you tried sleep training to me before and I just don't want to hear it. Her two sleep through and I just find it smug- she's got lucky and now claiming its all down to cc. Am I justified in texting back to say ftfo to the far side of fuck?!?!

Babies tend to sleep a lot, and can easily be fed hands free.

Hahahahaha! I take it you didn't have a refluxy baby with CMPA and 95% tongue tie, who refused to sleep for longer than 30 minutes at a time or eat well for the first few months? Some babies might sleep a lot.

Talk about picking up a throwaway comment. OK, they come to understand as they get older, the 3 yr old would understand for example. The baby would hear your voice, they'd know you were there, they'd come to learn that meant you were coming soon. Occasionally waiting 5 minutes in the same room because you're sorting their brother's bruises isn't quite the same degree of separation for a baby as being routinely left alone in a cot all night.

I'm not sure what you think the AP principles say that would require instant responses. We all try to respond to our babies' needs, AP or not. We all have to compromise and prioritise. It's really no big deal.

I really don't feel I have failed to meet my child's need if I don't do it instantly, I can't think of a single circumstance I've felt that. Children's needs don't come with a timer that goes "ping, too late, you failed to meet my need, you're not AP any more". There are degrees of urgency. Unless both children are about to fall off a cliff, the less urgent one can wait. If both children are about to fall off a cliff you've probably gone wrong before that point.

I haven't read all 33 pages of this - just the original post and it seems to me OP that you're struggling doing it your way while your friend doing it her way is much happier with 2 kids that sleep through.

Are you sure you're not just a teensy bit jealous?
Still now you've made such a noise about CC being such a bad idea you'd look pretty stupid to U turn and do it (even if it does work), so I guess you'll just have to carry on struggling while your friend gets to enjoy her sleep filled nights.

On a serious note though, if you don't want your friends opinions / help then why text her telling her how hard it's been of late? What exactly was she supposed to say other that ' well CC works for me...'
If you're going to bite her head off when she makes a suggestion then maybe bother someone else with your woes.

Can I just ask what people who do AP do when the health visitor one year check comes along and they ask whether the child is sleeping? Just say no and then ignore the HV advice? At what point when a kid can't sleep because they have never been given the chance to go to sleep by themselves do people get concerned? Not goady, not being argumentative, genuinely wondering.

Now you should no ohohohitsmagic that any parent who says their child sleeps through before 2 years old is lying. It's MN lore and oft repeated on MN threads about sleep. You are supposed to lie to your HV about it as well.

FWIW SIL was still sitting outside the door of my nephews bedroom when he was 9/10 years old until he went to sleep. They said they didnt get a full nights sleep in over 10 years because he is "sensitive" He is grown up now and lovely, but I there is no way I would have been still sitting outside the dcs door every night waiting for them to sleep at that age.

One year check? There ain't one here. I'd say she wakes still but we're cosleeping so it's not a problem. I think I may have even said this at the 2.5 year check, about that or something else AP-ish. They said if I needed any help when I did want to do something about it to give them a call, something along those lines. HVs aren't out to fix things that aren't a problem.

I don't think going to sleep is a radically different process whether there's a parent next to you or not. They just naturally sleep better as they get older. Mine sleep like logs at 3 and 6. If I tried to wake them in the night they'd complain vociferously till I let them go back to sleep. 6 yr old will usually read books to himself in bed and turn off his light when he's ready to sleep. 3 yr old sometimes goes to sleep with me, or sometimes I settle her and then let her know I'm going to tidy up or whatever and she says OK night night. I did night wean at some point when the feeding started to bother me (another of those compromises! about 2 and 2.5 if I remember correctly), otherwise have done nothing to teach them to sleep, they just did it.

My HV thinks it's perfectly fine. She is a huge advocate of AP and of Co-sleeping, will always suggest co-sleeping to breastfeeding Mums as a way to get more sleep.
Nightime wakening happened, at one and two years, but never a problem for me or my HV.

Having frequent night wakenings is a different thing to being sleep deprived.

having frequent night wakings is a different thing to being sleep deprived

Not if you're the type of person who can't fall back to sleep fairly quickly after each night waking. I was the type of person who took over an hour to fall back to sleep after each feed, and when I was waking 4+ times a night to feed, you can see that it did lead to sleep deprivation in my case. So that is quite a sweeping generalisation four assuming that because it worked for you it would work for everybody.
Co- sleeping also didn't work for me or DS as we are both wriggly sleepers and woke each other up each time we turned over. So you can see that the hallowed AP principles work for some- great- but not for everybody.

Where did four or anyone say it has to work for everyone scrumpy? You do what works for you.

I think a large majority of people who cosleep and breastfeed find the falling back to sleep bit is easy. And I say that as someone who usually struggles to go to sleep. I think there's a hormonal thing with breastfeeding that makes mum and baby sleepy anyway? And you hardly have to wake up to feed a baby that's right next to you. Having to wake up enough to go and fetch baby and stay awake to put them back in the cot afterwards is a whole different kettle of fish, I'm not surprised it wouldn't work for you.

Like I said, it wasn't a problem for us, so HV didn't try to fix it. My friend with a similar sleeping baby got referred to the sleep clinic because for their family it was a problem.

Not sure how your comment about children knowing you'd come as soon as you could was in any way throwaway catkind. Your post read as though it was rather central to what you were saying. But I'm glad we're clear you don't really think that.

Unfortunately though, you still seem to be (deliberately?) blurring the line between AP requiring a child's needs always be met instantly, and AP requiring a child's needs be met with some, not all of these needs being instant. Not the same thing in the slightest. I don't think compromising is a big deal, I wondered whether AP would given that some needs are instant and won't always be able to be met instantly. Nobody seems to want to play that particular inconvenient ball though, alas...

I don't think any needs are instant unless the child is actually in mortal danger. Is that clear enough? You're trying to create a dichotomy where there isn't one.

That sounds like a rather niche position, and I did think you'd agreed my 6 year old upthread was in need of urgent attention despite that not being a mortal danger situation. But yes, that's very clear. If you're willing to lower the bar for 'meeting needs' sufficiently, you can practice 'AP' with multiple children. Quite informative.

Yes, said 6 yr old would be more urgent than a baby wanting a feed or closeness. Unless the 4 year old was about to jump off the cliff in which case they would be more urgent again. I really don't think you've got the point of AP. Having to wait occasionally doesn't change the principles of being as responsive as you can to a baby's needs and keeping them close to their principal caregiver(s). Hey, if the 6 yr old is on the other side of the playground and i'm looking the wrong way when they fall over it'll take me a minute to get there too. Or how about if they break their leg at school? Do I fail ap for that too?

Preach !!!

@Smataya

Thanks now. I just want him to be secure and happy and a bit of sleep deprivation seems a small price to pay.

I'm sorry but the fact that the child is only sleeping an hour at a time doesn't do much to suggest that they are happy or secure? I imagine clingy, lacking in energy and exhausted. I hope you get sorted soon. Xx

@PrettyMaMa

Preach !!!

your comment was definitely worth reviving a 6 year old thread for

Thanks now. I just want him to be secure and happy and a bit of sleep deprivation seems a small price to pay.

The problem is a baby who doesn’t sleep for longer than an hour can’t be happy as their sleep needs are not being met.

You know that your child only sleeping an hour at a time is incredibly damaging for their development? Like, unlike controlled crying, there actually IS high quality research showing that good quality sleep is crucial to development in children. Your kind of parenting makes ME so angry.

If this now nearly 6 year old is still only sleeping an hour at a time, I think the OP has bigger problems

Sleep deprivation has clearly gotten to your good sense. If you know her stance on the issue, why did you even go to her about this? All she can do is respond with her own opinions according to her own experiences. And then you get all bent out of shape over her response? That’s like going up to a vegan and complaining you don’t have a good meatball recipe and then getting angry when they give you a vegan meatball recipe. Like, whatttttttt? 🤪 You don’t like her methods? Then stay off that topic and talk about other things. You don’t like her way and she doesn’t like yours. There’s this mature adult thing called “agree to disagree.” Perhaps you’ve heard of it?

@Happyhappyday agreed. I balked at “just not a sleeper.” I mean… sleep is necessary to sustain life. That’s really not up for debate.

Will the OP return? I want to know how it all turned out.

and this ladies and gents is how soft parenting is done

@Gileswithachainsaw

I love the irony that two or three nights if crying is cruel but letting them. wake up hourly for months on end til mum and baby are so sleep deprived life must he frickin miserable is somehow not so cruel.

Exactly!

she's got lucky and now claiming its all down to cc.

She hasn’t got lucky, she’s done sleep training with her children and it’s been successful. It’s totally ok and understandable not to want to do controlled crying and I get it must be annoying if she’s still talking about it and you’ve asked her not to (if you’ve actually done that), but it isn’t luck or smugness. Sleep training in all its forms works for millions of families. If yours isn’t one of those because you’ve chosen something else that’s fine but you probably have to accept that broken sleep is going to come with your choices.