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'The only way we've sorted a sleep prob in this house is controlled crying' - fuck off!!

849 replies

Smataya · 24/07/2015 09:01

I text friend who has two under two how hard it's been of late with Ds 11 months just not sleeping. I've explained before he is just not a sleeper and likes to be close at night, wakes a lot for milk and that I'm doing attachment parenting. She knows how against cc I am and I will not ever leave my child to cry. Ds has not slept for longer than an hour since he was 5 months which is starting to take its toll, but as I say, he's just not a sleeper and it's tough.

Why the f is she doing this pa bull shit about cc over text?? She's been like eerr have you tried sleep training to me before and I just don't want to hear it. Her two sleep through and I just find it smug- she's got lucky and now claiming its all down to cc. Am I justified in texting back to say ftfo to the far side of fuck?!?!

OP posts:
Twinkie1 · 24/07/2015 14:26

If you think existing in this state of mind isn't damaging your child more than leaving him to settle himself at 11 months then you are sadly mistaken.

You'll be far better equipped to give her child what he needs after a nights sleep.

Mrsjayy · 24/07/2015 14:27

Cant let this go i tried this learned bollocks that was spouted is a result of scientist inflcting continious physical pain on animals they learned to accept the pain and gave up on it a child crying for a few minutes is not abuse or neglect and if anybody thinks it is has no clue what neglect of children really is (actually raging)

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 24/07/2015 14:28

bruffin - totally agree. Both DC were quite happy to self-settle from teeny tiny as long as they were clean, fed and warm.

If they cried, we picked them straight up and sorted out whatever the problem was (wind normally) but once they were settled, they went back in the Moses basket where they fell asleep naturally. No rocking or patting etc. they were quite happy. The one time that MIL tried to rock DD to sleep ended up with total hysteria (from DD) with a completely over-stimulated baby who wanted to be left alone to go to bloody sleep!

According to that blog - they are total misnomers!

Lennon80 · 24/07/2015 14:29

Bruffin - I would say lucky you - they were in your room so partially co-sleeping. I would also say your anecdotal story does not undermine the works of Bowlby, Ainsworth, Sunderland, Piaget, Steiner, Erikson etc etc

ADishBestEatenCold · 24/07/2015 14:30

Are you on your own with your baby, Smataya?

I think no matter how you choose to parent, whether it involves the most rigid form of CC or the most laid back form of AP (and everything in between), it is soooo much easier if you have someone to help you.

How much easier to stick it out when doing CC, if you have someone with you, to give you a hug and talk you out of going upstairs, as you lurk in the hallway (maybe with tears running down your face) as your baby sobs alone for the required few minutes! Grin
How much easier to break that vicious cycle of hourly waking (and feeding) when co-sleeping, if the co-sleeping person lying beside your baby is NOT you (and either isn't lactating or doesn't have boobs)! Grin

So I very much hope that you are not alone, Smataya, and have some kind of support.

I have no great advice to add ... my DCs are not only past the age of sleep training, they are at an age when they'd rather I didn't actually know what time they had crept home to their beds at ... my parenting styles tended to be a bit slap dash, sort of the 'whatever-works-at-the-time' style.

I simply wanted to add a bit of reassurance. This will pass. Most likely, very soon, when he starts to run about and become more active and independent ... but even worse case scenario, you don't usually meet many 16 year olds, that want to sleep with their parents.

For sure, don't be so hard on your friends, but ... especially ... definitely don't be so hard on yourself.

ADishBestEatenCold · 24/07/2015 14:31

Oppps, cross posted with a lot of extremist stuff, and find that I do have a great piece of advice to add, after all, Smataya ...

... ignore extremist stuff! Grin

Gileswithachainsaw · 24/07/2015 14:32

Oh thank god bruffin there are books. lots of books

what use is a bollocks website without the literature available for purchase.

She is putting the money to good use financing tours and presumably research

Grin
SerialBox · 24/07/2015 14:32

sophiesdog like I said in that post though co-sleeping is great if it works for the parent and the baby. It did in your situation. It isn't in the OPs or her child's.

BettyCatKitten · 24/07/2015 14:34

Bruffin a guru? Who'd have guessed.........

tiktok · 24/07/2015 14:35

bruffin, you'd have a point dissing her if she was a homeopath - but there's no mention of it on her blog.

Lennon80 · 24/07/2015 14:36

Okay so the link was not a good one to use, but I could see the tone of the thread here and could not see any point in posting up all manner of peer reviewed research. However I note how you are not picking apart the other link posted?

CC is 'CIO mild' as far as I can see.

Dangers of “Crying It Out”

Damaging children and their relationships for the longterm.

Post published by Darcia Narvaez Ph.D. on Dec 11, 2011 in Moral Landscapes

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Dangers of “Crying It Out”

Damaging children and their relationships for the longterm.

Post published by Darcia Narvaez Ph.D.

*See note on basic assumptions below.

Letting babies "cry it out" is an idea that has been around since at least the 1880s when the field of medicine was in a hullaballoo about germs and transmitting infection and so took to the notion that babies should rarely be touched (see Blum, 2002(link is external), for a great review of this time period and attitudes towards childrearing).

In the 20th century, behaviorist John Watson (1928), interested in making psychology a hard science, took up the crusade against affection as president of the American Psychological Association. He applied the mechanistic paradigm of behaviorism to child rearing, warning about the dangers of too much mother love. The 20th century was the time when "men of science" were assumed to know better than mothers, grandmothers and families about how to raise a child. Too much kindness to a baby would result in a whiney, dependent, failed human being. Funny how "the experts" got away with this with no evidence to back it up! Instead there is evidence all around (then and now) showing the opposite to be true!

A government pamphlet from the time recommended that "mothering meant holding the baby quietly, in tranquility-inducing positions" and that "the mother should stop immediately if her arms feel tired" because "the baby is never to inconvenience the adult." A baby older than six months "should be taught to sit silently in the crib; otherwise, he might need to be constantly watched and entertained by the mother, a serious waste of time." (See Blum, 2002.)

Don't these attitudes sound familiar? A parent reported to me recently that he was encouraged to let his baby cry herself to sleep so he "could get his life back."

[Note: In other posts on infant sleep listed below, my co-authors and I point out flaws in studies of sleep training. Here is another example. Check out this article(link is external) and its table that lists the studies reviewed. The table shows that every study is flawed--either the intervention was not followed (fidelity) and/or only parent reports were used, not observation. Moreover, the age range of the children varied. Most importantly, note that most studies did not measure child wellbeing. So there is no responsible way to draw generalizable conclusions from this set of flawed studies. The standards for publishing such studies appears to be very low. In a forthcoming post, we note how many studies use an "Intent to Treat" criterion for distinguishing conditions, not bothering about what actually happened.]

With neuroscience, we can confirm what our ancestors took for granted---that letting babies get distressed is a practice that can damage children and their relational capacities in many ways for the long term. We know now that leaving babies to cry is a good way to make a less intelligent, less healthy but more anxious, uncooperative and alienated persons who can pass the same or worse traits on to the next generation.

The discredited behaviorist view sees the baby as an interloper into the life of the parents, an intrusion who must be controlled by various means so the adults can live their lives without too much bother. Perhaps we can excuse this attitude and ignorance because at the time, extended families were being broken up and new parents had to figure out how to deal with babies on their own, an unnatural condition for humanity--we have heretofore raised children in extended families. The parents always shared care with multiple adult relatives.

According to a behaviorist view completely ignorant of human development, the child 'has to be taught to be independent.' We can confirm now that forcing "independence" on a baby leads to greater dependence. Instead, giving babies what they need leads to greater independence later. In anthropological reports of small-band hunter-gatherers, parents took care of every need of babies and young children. Toddlers felt confident enough (and so did their parents) to walk into the bush on their own (see Hunter-Gatherer Childhoods, edited by Hewlett & Lamb, 2005).

Ignorant behaviorists then and now encourage parents to condition the baby to expect needs NOT to be met on demand, whether feeding or comforting. It's assumed that the adults should 'be in charge' of the relationship. Certainly this might foster a child that doesn't ask for as much help and attention (potentially withdrawing into depression and going into stasis or even wasting away) but it is more likely to foster a whiney, unhappy, aggressive and/or demanding child, one who has learned that one must scream to get needs met. A deep sense of insecurity is likely to stay with them the rest of life.

The fact is that caregivers who habitually respond to the needs of the baby before the baby gets distressed, preventing crying, are more likely to have children who are independent than the opposite (e.g., Stein & Newcomb, 1994). Soothing care is best from the outset. Once patterns of distress get established, it's much harder to change them.

Rats are often used to study how mammalian brains work and many effects are similar in human brains. In studies of rats with high or low nurturing mothers, there is a critical period for turning on genes that control anxiety for the rest of life. If in the first 10 days of life you have a low nurturing rat mother (the equivalent of the first 6 months of life in a human), the gene never gets turned on and the rat is anxious towards new situations for the rest of its life, unless drugs are administered to alleviate the anxiety. These researchers say that there are hundreds of genes affected by nurturance. Similar mechanisms are found in human brains--caregiver behavior matters for turning genes on and off. (See work of Michael Meaney and colleagues; e. g., Meaney, 2001).

We should understand the mother and child as a mutually responsive dyad. They are a symbiotic unit that make each other healthier and happier in mutual responsiveness. This expands to other caregivers too.

One strangely popular notion still around today is to let babies 'cry it out' (aka total extinction or unmodified extinction) when they are left alone, isolated in cribs or in other devices. This comes from a misunderstanding of child brain development.
•Babies grow from being held. Their bodies get dysregulated when they are physically separated from caregivers. (See here for more.)
•Babies indicate a need through gesture and eventually, if necessary, through crying. Just as adults reach for liquid when thirsty, children search for what they need in the moment. Just as adults become calm once the need is met, so do babies.
•There are many longterm effects of undercare or need-neglect in babies (e.g., Bremmer et al, 1998; Blunt Bugental et al., 2003; Dawson et al., 2000; Heim et al 2003).
•Secure attachment is related to responsive parenting, such as comforting babies when they wake up and cry at night(link is external).

What does 'crying it out' actually do to the baby and to the dyad?

Neuronal interconnections are damaged. When the baby is greatly distressed,it creates conditions for damge to synapses, the network construction which is ongoing in the infant brain. The hormone cortisol is released. In excess, it's a neuron killer but its consequences many not be apparent immediately (Thomas et al. 2007). A full-term baby (40-42 weeks), with only 25% of its brain developed, is undergoing rapid brain growth. The brain grows on average three times as large by the end of the first year (and head size growth in the first year is a sign of intelligence, e.g., Gale et al., 2006). Who knows what neurons are not being connected or being wiped out during times of extreme stress? What deficits might show up years later from such regular distressful experience? (See my addendum below.)

Disordered stress reactivity can be established as a pattern for life not only in the brain with the stress response system (Bremmer et al, 1998), but also in the body through the vagus nerve, a nerve that affects functioning in multiple systems (e.g., digestion). For example, prolonged distress in early life, lack of responsive parenting, can result in a poorly functioning vagus nerve, which is related to various disorders as irritable bowel syndrome (Stam et al, 1997). See more about how early stress is toxic for lifelong health from the recent Harvard report, The Foundations of Lifelong Health are Built in Early Childhood(link is external)).

Self-regulation is undermined. The baby is absolutely dependent on caregivers for learning how to self-regulate. Responsive care-meeting the baby's needs before he gets distressed-tunes the body and brain up for calmness. When a baby gets scared and a parent holds and comforts him, the baby builds expectations for soothing, which get integrated into the ability to self comfort. Babies don't self-comfort in isolation. If they are left to cry alone, they learn to shut down in face of extensive distress--stop growing, stop feeling, stop trusting (Henry & Wang, 1998).

Trust is undermined. As Erik Erikson(link is external) pointed out, the first year of life is a sensitive period for establishing a sense of trust in the world, the world of caregiver and the world of self. When a baby's needs are met without distress, the child learns that the world is a trustworthy place, that relationships are supportive, and that the self is a positive entity that can get its needs met. When a baby's needs are dismissed or ignored, the child develops a sense of mistrust of relationships and the world. And self-confidence is undermined. The child may spend a lifetime trying to fill the resulting inner emptiness.

Caregiver sensitivity may be harmed. A caregiver who learns to ignore baby crying, will likely learn to ignore the more subtle signaling of the child's needs. Second-guessing intuitions that guide one to want to stop child distress, the adult who learns to ignores baby needs practices and increasingly learns to "harden the heart." The reciprocity between caregiver and baby is broken by the adult, but cannot be repaired by the young child. The baby is helpless.

Caregiver responsiveness(link is external) to the needs of the baby is related to most if not all positive child outcomes. In our work caregiver responsiveness is related to intelligence, empathy, lack of aggression or depression, self-regulation, social competence. Because responsiveness is so powerful, we have to control for it in our studies of other parenting practices and child outcomes. The importance of caregiver responsiveness is common knowledge in developmental psychology. Lack of responsiveness, which "crying it out" represents can result in the opposite of the aforementioned positive outcomes.

The 'cry it out' approach seems to have arisen as a solution to the dissolution of extended family life in the 20th century. The vast knowledge of (now great great) grandmothers was lost in the distance between households with children and those with the experience and expertise about how to raise them well. The wisdom of keeping babies happy was lost between generations.

But isn't it normal for babies to cry?

No. A crying baby in our ancestral environment would have signaled predators to tasty morsels. So our evolved parenting practices alleviated baby distress and precluded crying except in emergencies. Babies are built to expect the equivalent of an "external womb" after birth (see Allan Schore(link is external), specific references below). What is the external womb? ---being held constantly, breastfed on demand, needs met quickly (I have numerous posts on these things). These practices are known to facilitate good brain and body development (discussed with references in other posts, some links below). When babies display discomfort, it signals that a need is not getting met, a need of their rapidly growing systems.

What does extensive baby crying signal? It shows the lack of experience, knowledge and/or support of the baby's caregivers. To remedy a lack of information in us all, below is a good set of articles about all the things that a baby's cry can signal. We can all educate ourselves about what babies need and the practices that alleviate baby crying. We can help one another to keep crying from happening as much as possible.

Lennon80 · 24/07/2015 14:38

I strongly suggest you read this link www.aaimhi.org/inewsfiles/Position_Paper_1_updated.pdf

SerialBox · 24/07/2015 14:38

yawn Shock

BeautifulBatman · 24/07/2015 14:40

Lennon80 - CC is not CIO. So the rest of post is pointless.

Lennon80 · 24/07/2015 14:41

This link refers to CC

controlled crying is CIO 'light''

www.aaimhi.org/inewsfiles/Position_Paper_1_updated.pdf

Cotto · 24/07/2015 14:42

Lennon All that would be well and good sounds like bollocks if the OP was stating her approach was resulting in 8 hours of lovely sleep for them all.
No one is sleeping for more than an hour, baby or mother
This must be damaging for the well being of both.

MrsDeVere · 24/07/2015 14:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thatsshallot · 24/07/2015 14:45

Plus Lennon that is only up to 6 months as the author asserts, 11 months is a different thing altogether and if the child has had all of its needs met will cope emotionally perfectly well with gradual retreating. The study above does not cover cc at all

ImperialBlether · 24/07/2015 14:46

Lennon, I hope you didn't type that up yourself, as I don't think anyone read it.

If you copied it from somewhere, just the link will do next time.

Lennon80 · 24/07/2015 14:46

People can post catty and snide remarks here and think they are clever for doing so however they would be ignoring the decades of research of developmental psychologists.. but Yawn away. Don't come to the table as a 'know it all' unless you are indeed well read in the theory of academic and psychologists who I am afraid know a lot more than Gina Ford, who is a nobody.

The attitude I see here from those who have used CC reminds me so much of the anti vax movement. ''I have done my research' so I will ignore the science.

Anyway OP good luck. Put your little one in bed with you and get some sleep.

BettyCatKitten · 24/07/2015 14:46

Crying it out is totally different to feeding baby, having a big cuddle and kiss and putting them gently in their crib/Moses basket and gently rubbing their chest till they fall asleep.
Also the Romanian orphans who were left hours at a time with no human interaction and in the confined space of a cot, resulting in physical disabilities and cognitive impairments. Extreme abussive neglectful situation, not comparable to cc in any way.

swallowed · 24/07/2015 14:46

MN should have a character limit

Cherryblossomsinspring · 24/07/2015 14:47

This is for OP. I didn't read through the pages of responses and am not either for or against cc. I was involved in the below thread for a very similar aged baby and situation. My advice is here if it's of any use. Please do read to the end though. My first response on the thread was a bit direct. Good luck OP. We all need sleep.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2429569-Utterly-exhausted

BeautifulBatman · 24/07/2015 14:48

Says who? I've read the pdf - did I miss something? Tbh, considering they cant even get the timing of publication in order - First issued November 2013; revised March 2004; revised October 2013 © AAIMHI Confused - I am dubious as to the rest of the 'research'.

Cotto · 24/07/2015 14:49

Do you honestly think we are all GF devotees ?Confused

Put your little one in bed with you and get some sleep
The OP is doing this and getting only one hours sleep at a time !

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