'The only way we've sorted a sleep prob in this house is controlled crying' - fuck off!!

[Smataya]

I text friend who has two under two how hard it's been of late with Ds 11 months just not sleeping. I've explained before he is just not a sleeper and likes to be close at night, wakes a lot for milk and that I'm doing attachment parenting. She knows how against cc I am and I will not ever leave my child to cry. Ds has not slept for longer than an hour since he was 5 months which is starting to take its toll, but as I say, he's just not a sleeper and it's tough.

Why the f is she doing this pa bull shit about cc over text?? She's been like eerr have you tried sleep training to me before and I just don't want to hear it. Her two sleep through and I just find it smug- she's got lucky and now claiming its all down to cc. Am I justified in texting back to say ftfo to the far side of fuck?!?!

"Controlled Crying is neglect and emotionally abusive. It is sadly part and parcel of parents wanting to have children yet have none of the 'inconvenience'. A by product of capitalism and me me me culture."

I truly don't give a stuff if it's gets deleted but fuck right off with your utter shite.

As someone who was neglected and emotionally abused until I was abandoned age 4, you don't know what you re talking about.

I adore my children and was desperate to have them. I refuse to believe that letting them learn that the more they cry and play up at night, the more attention they will get is a good thing and that being a good parent involves teaching them things that are beneficial for them. Get in a decent nights sleep is beneficial for babies and young children. It is not fucking abusive. Fucking idiotic statement made by someone who has no clue.

OP, I think you are very confused with CC and CIO. CIO is terrible. CC, they are not left for long, minutes at a time, go back in, reassure them with a "sh, sleep time now, night night" lay them down, cover up whatever it is then leave the room. All kept dark, all quiet voices. Return after a few minutes, repeat. You would be surprised how quickly they learn. DS took 3 evenings and I think it was about 20 minutes in total a night with us doing the above. If you choose to try it it is likely it would take longer because your DS is not used to it and it will take him a while to adjust, but he will learn. Letting him carry on the way he is is not good for him or you or anyone else in the house. Unless they are ill babies do not need to be waking this frequently at night. It is not normal.

And the majority of us with good sleepers are not lucky. Everyone I know says that with bad sleepers, and everyone of them does things that prolongs it so of course their babies don't sleep properly because they have become accustomed to getting attention/-being seen to/being fed when they wake in the night.

FWIW we tried CC reluctantly and it was a disaster. All the stuff online said it went on for a few hours max. 7 hours in and were still going - it clearly didn't suit and did traumatise our DS. Going back to him just escalated it if anythin

Binkybix it sounds like you did CIO not CC.

Lennon80, where is that taken from? Is it a book or a research paper? Just wondering if it was opinion or had some evidence behind it?

There is no way that in a home where all needs are met all day and baby is safe and warm and loved that they forget all that when mummy leaves the room when they are crying fir 5 mins.

seriously.

either they learn or they don't but you can't cherry pick all the negatives they all apparently learn whilst claiming they can't remember the rest of it.

Emilia you can't even credit that as a 'post' - just a bit of googling with cut and paste. Pathetic.

Plus the fact that she has apologised for what she said about the NSPCC advert

Where? I missed it.

Did anyone actually read that copy and paste job of Lennon's??

Jesus wept Lennon80 are you on drugs or just sleep deprived?

I think "bollocks" sums up the response I need to Lennons post. Anything else and I would risk being banned!

If you text someone complaining then they are going to offer advice to try and help. If you know you won't agree with their methods/advice then don't complain to them, what else was your friend going to say?

To be honest if at 11 months, your child only sleeps 1 hour at a time it is not good for you or them. Sometimes parenting is about making hard choices and being open to other things. You might be of the opinion that Cc leads to insecure children (I think that's the word you used) but I can tell you that in my experience it was quite the opposite, I had a child who didn't sleep and was cranky all day long which lead to me being cranky/unhappy and so on. So I sleep trained, and he cried, for a few days but after that was out of the way, he slept, I slept and we are now both much happier as a result.

You don't need to do cc but you do need to do something to sort this out, being so sleep deprived is not good for a child and I'd be willing to take a punt that it affects their development a lot more than having a bit of a cry. Speak to your HV, maybe they could let you know about some other methods?

You wouldn't ask a vegan how best to cook a steak.

OP, if you want to do AP, you have the right to. Just as every parent has the right to do what they think is best for their child. However to get to the precise question you asked, no you are not justified in telling her to ' ftfo to the far side of fuck'. Not at all. She said what worked for her. Take it or leave it. But she's not the devil for saying it.

OP, if you can afford it, Millpond Sleep Clinic are very good, and offer two different forms of help, a crying one and a non-crying one (which takes longer).

Sorry OP but IMHO co-sleeping in this situation sounds like it's more your need than babies. It's great if it works for you but the fact is it's not working.

Personally I used CC - not CIO and it worked. This was at 1 when after a spell of illness DDs sleeping was knocked right out. Before that she slept fine. I get you don't want to CC so how about putting your baby in a different room, you might be surprised. It may be you or your husband that's disturbing the baby and not the other way round. For this reason DD was in her own room at 12 weeks and it did the trick after a couple of nights with little sleep.

www.aaimhi.org/inewsfiles/Position_Paper_1_updated.pdf

OP have a read of this and don't take too much notice of people whose ideas come from the likes of Gina Ford. The academic community in psychology and developmental child psychology as well as those studying child brain development are strongly against CIO and CC. Have a read of Margot Sunderland's work and that of Sue Gerhrdt.

From Why Love Matters, “human babies are born with the expectation of having stress managed for them. They tend to have low levels of cortisol in the first few months, as long as caring adults maintain their equilibrium through touch, stroking, feeding and rocking. But their immature systems are very unstable and reactive; they can be plunged into very high cortisol levels if there is no one responding to them. Babies cannot mange their own cortisol” (p.65).

Also, you may need to make sure your LO eats more during the day. You shouldn't really have to do night feeds at this age.

I did cc with my eldest at about 14 months. DP was working away at the time and I was pregnant with DC2. I didn't think I would be doing myself or my unborn baby any good if I wasn't getting enough sleep.

It took two nights of going in every couple of minutes and we never had any trouble after. And I totally reject the "frozen baby" theory. DS never had any trouble shouting or crying for us if he was poorly or lost his teddy.

I have never done Cc with my DD. not anti it but just felt it wouldn't work for us. I have however used other methods - night weaned and also gradual retreat which did work for a while and she has had periods of sleeping through, but somehow despite doing nothing different it always goes tits up at some point and we end up with night waking again. I therefore get a bit fed up with the posters saying that sleep is not down to luck & their great parenting has made their children sleepers.
Also for what it's worth my mum did CC with me and says it worked great, but as an older child through into adulthood I have had regular bouts of insomnia and sleep very lightly now, so I don't at all buy into the theory that you are teaching life long skills.

What crapbag said.

There is all the difference in the world between CIO and CC.

I've only just seen this thread, clicked on it, and as I read upside down on a page I've seen the most recent post first.

Co sleeping for ME is ENTIRELY for my benefit.

I have done it everytime, with three children, and each time it has been by far the easiest option when compared to trying to get them to sleep alone.

Changing a baby or toddler's habits is hard work and can be counterproductive and extremely distressing for parents and children.

Changing our own habits has to be the best guarantee of a result.

So I took that approach, co slept (still do) and fed/feed on demand and I've had far better sleep than I did during the week or two when I was persuaded to try and get Ds1 into his own bed in his own room.

So yes it is for my needs. They sleep instantly in my bed with me. They take a fucking age to settle anywhere else.

it's logical and painless and it works.

(I have been published on this topic, I should say - but only in the MN book of babies!!!)

From Why Love Matters, “human babies are born with the expectation of having stress managed for them. They tend to have low levels of cortisol in the first few months, as long as caring adults maintain their equilibrium through touch, stroking, feeding and rocking. But their immature systems are very unstable and reactive; they can be plunged into very high cortisol levels if there is no one responding to them. Babies cannot mange their own cortisol” (p.65).

Exactly - this is in relation to very young babies. We are talking about a baby who is nearly 1 here.

I find it, frankly, unbelievable that you can equate putting a sleepy baby down whilst still awake to go to sleep with Romanian orphans who were obviously the victims of severe neglect. Crackers.

As your earlier quite says, babies are not born with the ability to go to sleep or rude a bicycle. Both are a skill that needs to be taught to them

What if I told you that babies can’t self soothe?
Lennon you needed to come and tell all that to my dc who both slept through without any sleep training from 12 weeks in their own cots in our room. Thankfully nobody told them they should be able to self soothe themselves back to sleep if they woke up in the night.

They are lovely,loving and contended teenagers now.

*sarahockwell-smith.com/tag/hippocampus-controlled-crying/ Lennons post is from this blog/book]]

This is what I was responding to:

Sorry OP but IMHO co-sleeping in this situation sounds like it's more your need than babies.

HELL yeah

Presumably all this lengthy post is based on the evidence of the best, peer reviewed science is it? Or is it just someone's theory??

Plus it is good for them too, clearly, or they wouldn't sleep so well when I did it...

Plus I don't like hearing them cry or rocking them for hours...

it's a win-win

My Ds was fully bf and we were fairly baby led. At 4.5 months he was waking up every hour, having a bf for literally seconds and then going back to sleep. I was so sleep deprived I was hallucinating, I would wake up in panic not knowing whether I'd put the boy back in his cot and searching the bed for him (he was always back in his cot totally safe).

I had become unsafe through sleep deprivation. All my friends from baby group were getting 8 hours a night without doing anything in particular it seemed

I read the book "Good Night Sleep Tight" which has age specific advice.

We started by monitoring his daytime cues for food and sleep more carefully and established the schedule he was working to so we could make sure he got enough daytime sleep (about an hour from 9.30 and 2 hours from 2.30 until he was about 10 months then just 12-2 ish).

Then we introduced a bedtime routine that had him in bed and sleepy by 7.30pm.

We introduced a dream feed around 10.30pm.

Then we did a very gentle version of cc to drop the night feeds. Basically leave him for 3 minutes, then soothe but not pick up, repeat. The first night it took an hour, the second night about 30 minutes, the third night maybe 10 minutes and since then he's mostly slept through

Each step took about 3-4 days and we kept the dream feeds until he was about 10 months.

He's a very happy, content settled boy. As soon as he started sleeping through he was happier during the day.

proper link to a self professed parenting guru who holds qualifications in homeopathy