to ask why, if it's generally accepted to be the behaviour of a twat, do parents exclude a couple of kids from class parties?

[Chippedrippedandstinking]

Inspired by Lappy's thread, we all agree it's wrong and yet it happens. With flame amnesty, will abuone admit to doing it, and if so, why?
And if it happened to you, did you call the parents on it?

I've only seen it once, the mother was taken aside and an invitation was issued.

I will say again, as I said earlier on (about 15 pages back!!) that all this talk of "bullies" (especially among very young children) is often pretty far off the mark.
I work in a school and we frequently have parents insisting that their poor angelic child is being bullied by some evil little bitch; next day mother of said "evil bitch" comes in and insist her child is being bullied by "angelic child". The truth? Usually that there is some fault on both sides; it's pretty unusual for one child to be 100% to blame in these cases.
As others have said, aggressive behaviour is very often caused by problems at home, fear, insecurities etc. Children with these problems can very often be helped. Deliberately leaving them out by not inviting them to parties when every other child in the class is invited (and making them feel very unhappy) is not going to help, and in 9 cases out of 10 you are probably mistaken in your opinion of their behaviour anyway.
The lack of kindness shown towards young children on this thread is appalling.

A young child certainly can be a bully, what you describe is a little fallout, the kids normally make up and all is good. Bullying is sustained and targeted. it worries my that someone that works in a school doesn't believe this happens. Luckily my school did believe it happened, they struggled to deal with it though. I am thankful my child was not at your school Pastaeater

I wasn't going to comment again,
but I just wanted to agree fully with Pastaeater who has managed to say what I have been trying to say in a very short, clear way. I think is particularly true in the key stage 1 class which is where the bulk of whole class parties take place.

I have been appalled at the lack of kindness on this thread- when children are very young- with the whole 'couldn't care two hoots' attitude which accounts for my comment about parents not having resolved their own experience of bullying - the resentments of years are being channeled towards the child you are excluding - there is almost a joy in the 'now you know what it feels like' - and yet the child is probably under 7 yrs old.

Yes Past you sound exactly like my DD teachers, my DD crime was inviting an additional child swimming
Other girl didnt like it, she started rumours, got others to not be her friend, planned stuff excluding her , got the biggest girl o pin her by her neck to the wall, she was called names, the nice kids walked away from trouble so she had no support. I will say it again, teachers have no real understanding of bullies, incidents are sneaky, playground teachers dont inform class teachers, dinner ladies tell them off, theres no big picture. Im not suprised parents are in demanding action, you are being flipant. DEAL with it.

And I will say this Pasta ... if you dont deal.with it, the kids feel worse, and they take matters into their own hands. If you agree x did something probably because y did something last night on instagram, you deal with todays issue, you sometimes let the bully win, and give them more power. You are doing both children a diservice.

Pasta didn't say bullying never happened she wrote "that all this talk of "bullies" (especially among very young children) is often pretty far off the mark." and "it's pretty unusual for one child to be 100% to blame in these cases" and "in 9 cases out of 10 you are probably mistaken in your opinion of their behaviour".

It's always best to make sure you have correctly understood both what somebody has said and what has actually happened before jumping to conclusions.

And Mehitabel for the record I was never bullied so I am not projecting my experience onto my son. I have however seen my brother bullied - he was clinically depressed for 10 years afterwards. But nevemond eh? Pehaps the kid that bullied him had a bad background so thats OK isn't it.

I know what she said, she isolates one incident, so x took y toy, what happened before? Last week? Wheres the full understanding?

Actually Merry I think the context of her post was very dismissive of bullying. It is the way in which it was written. She didn't say sometimes bullying happened, instead it rarely happens, its hardly ever one kids fault etc etc.

I wasn't picking you out lucylooloo but the general comment that has come up about 'couldn't give two hoots'.
Pasta is not talking about bullying - she is explaining what 'all this talk of bullies' often means.
She is seeing the overall view- often missing when you are looking at just one child.
The intelligent bully slips under the radar and they still get to the parties- the immature bully ( the one that just thumps) gets excluded. The bully who doesn't thump can be far worse.

I can't understand why you get a thread like this with adults getting heated and generally unpleasant and yet 4 yr olds are supposed to start school knowing how to get on with each other.

In my experience 4 year olds generally do get on with each other. During primary they fall out one day, the next they are playing together again. They play in large groups, sometimes they have best buddies but even then they seem to play with someone different everyday. Parents who get involved in every little fall out often end up worse off - the kids make up and the parents now dislike each other!! I agree with you itsmine. Totally.

Exactly ,Itsmine
Of course there is bullying but often it isn't.

How about the child who goads another, who being only 5 yrs eventually lashes out? The child who goaded looks as if butter wouldn't melt, saying 'I don't know why he did that, I was just............ The one who lashed out is labelled 'bully' but it was just his immature way of not knowing how to deal with the goading -and being only 5 yrs can't explain and has no witnesses.
The child who goaded gets to the party and will go on to do the same, making sure adults don't see it,while the child who lashed out is excluded from the party.

Bullying is not black and white.

But you are right Metitabel I couldn't give two hoots about the kid who bullied mine. Sorry

I think that we are in agreement then Lucy - children are learning how to get on and there will be fall outs. They are best left to sort it out and they will likely be friends again. Meanwhile the parent has come in complaining that the other child was the bully! Some children have a love hate relationship. I used to keep tissues handy for two girls- they couldn't live with each other and they couldn't live without each other.

I agree that that happens - frequently. .But I also know, from experience, that sometimes just sometimes there can be an evil little shite who genuinely bullies other children, and he is the one who unfortunately, my son had to deal with.

But not in agreement with your last one. You gave up whole class parties at yr 2 and so I don't think it kind to not give 2 hoots about a child under 7 yrs old.

Well clearly I am not as kind as you, so we will leave it at that.

That is what really,really annoys me- so much that I shall leave the thread- for the last time.
I really can't understand how anyone can label any child- especially one under 8 yrs and probably under 11 yrs - an evil little shite. Words fail me.
That child will have problems that your child has had the good fortune, by accident of birth, not to experience.

You call a 5 yr old 'an evil little shite' and yet you expect 5 yr olds not to do that sort of thing!

I think we are back to you mustn't bully a 'nice child' but you can do what you like to a 'nasty child' because they deserve it.

As a parent and as a teacher, I believe that bullying exists. Bullying is what turned my 5-6 year old DS into a selective mute, with bruises all the way down one side of his body where the bully pinched him (and he didn't speak up because 'only naughty children speak in class when they haven't been asked a question - and I'm good, so I don't').

However, true bullying is rarer than claims of bullying IYSWIM? I would say that it is a rare day in the classroom when a parent or child does not come to me with a claim of bullying, which on investigation is usually a 1-off and short-lived incident, in which on occasion the claimed 'victim' is actually the instigator of the behaviour. True bullying is rarer, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist - it is a rare term when I don't have to deal with at least 1 case of true bullying, and in the age group I teach (KS2) it is MUCH more often verbal / social than it is physical.

Yes their nice cosy have what they want when they want it life style ,.. one that makes them entitled? Rarely is it the child with a difficult back ground ..

I would also say, having taught many children by now, that I have yet to encounter one who could fairly be called 'evil' - though I have encountered quite a few whose behaviour is extremely unpleasant.

Interestingly, the child who I would say came closest to being 'evil' was a blonde, blue-eyed, angelic-seeming child from a very MC. MN family. It was the way in which the child manipulated those around her, using her appearance and background as one of her weapons against those who were not so fortunate in birth and appearance, that brought her closest, in my mind, to that 'evil' label, in the sense of there being an intrinsic character flaw that seemed to motivate much of her bahaviour.

Xpost teacher