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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

David Cameron has finally admitted that "integration is not working"

385 replies

WhetherOrNot · 20/07/2015 19:16

AIBU to think that he should have cottoned on about 10 years ago, not now when it is so glaringly obvious as to be an embarrassment for everyone?

OP posts:
OurDearLeader · 20/07/2015 22:35

I lived all over London in areas which had high populations of Indians, the Turkish, Africans and West Indians. We all got along fine and there were no problems, including the Muslims in those communities.

But when I lived in areas which had a high population of Pakistani, Bangladeshi or Somali people my experience was very, very different, I felt high levels of hostility and faced a lot of prejudice. I could detail it all but it's too depressing. Honestly if things of the level I experienced happened to someone Pakistani or Bangladeshi in a white community there would be people in jail in a heartbeat.

I've moved up north and it's similar here but communities are even more polarised. It's not uncommon to meet 3rd generation folk who grew up in Britain but have Pakistani accents because they've grown up with very little contact outside the Pakistani community.

I think part of the problem is that the attitudes which led to Rotherham are held by a sizeable minority. White people who are not Muslims are often seen as worthless, slags, immoral, promiscuous, lazy, dirty, unworthy of respect and deserving of any violence, exploitation or unkindness which flies their way. Although obviously most people don't go as far as murder, the attitude of the families involved in the Laura Wilson murder case to a child with a white partner are often pretty typical.

We can and do as a society challenge unpleasant attitudes within other communities. I really don't see why this is different. We've tried the opposite tack of ignoring any unpleasant aspects of certain communities and denying they exist and it just hasn't worked. It's created communities who feel that the state has endorsed their decision to self segregate and segregation has accelerated, particularly in the north. I really think that something new has to be tried.

SinisterBunnyMonth · 20/07/2015 22:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EllieFAntspoo · 20/07/2015 22:42

I noticed you skipped my query about the 'profits' we made from Iraq and Afghanistan, but hey ho, maybe your tinfoil hat slipped off.

Which companies have the contracts to rebuild these nations? Which companies have the contracts to advise? Which companies have the contracts to distribute the Iraqi oil? Which companies have the contracts to secure those fields? Who is Irans largest oil purchaser? Which country stands in the way of the Iran-China pipeline?

I really don't see the point in explaining what is very simple geopolitics here. If ignorance is your chosen bliss, you are welcome to it. This issue is far more complex than 'little Muslim man is evil and brainwashed'.

Whether by a mullah or a television set, weak minds are being told what to think on both sides here.

Wideopenspace · 20/07/2015 22:46

MrsTP you also are speaking sense.

There were a large number of pakistani heritage girls who were subject to abuse that was identical to that reported on in the Rotherham child abuse case. Many of these girls never reported the abuse, but a charity called Apna Haq has supported them.

The Rotherham case was about abusers and vulnerable children. The Catholic children's home cases were about abusers and vulnerable children. The Operation Yewtree cases were about abusers and vulnerable children..I could go on. The common factor amongst the vast majority is that the abusers are men. And most (with the exception of the Catholic children's homes) of the victims are girls.

An issue with sexual violence? Absolutely. An issue with power and inequality? Absolutely. Integration? I'm not so sure it is key.

Radicalrooster · 20/07/2015 22:47

MoreBeta, there are about 3 former British soldiers fighting against ISIS. One other died in action, one former city worker fighting as a mercenary came home. Former soldiers have much easier ways of making money these days. Syria is a deeply unattractive proposition when you could earn £300 a day working on a security gig in Nigeria.

Oh, and whatever mercenaries are out there, I bet you any money that they've yet to torture anyone to death for fun, or engage in the widescale and prolonged rape of Yazidi women, for example, or just victimise women in general (Kurds seem comparatively enlightened in that respect, apart from the whole honour killing thing). But give them time. I'm sure they'll live down to your expectations eventually.

PyjamasLlamas · 20/07/2015 22:48

Sorry radical what has any of that got to do with the the hundred of thousands of Muslims in Britain?

WhetherOrNot · 20/07/2015 22:53

OurDearLeader

Very well said indeed. It's just that a lot of people on MN deny that this is happening.

OP posts:
PurpleTurtles · 20/07/2015 22:54

Did someone really ask how US profitted from Iraq war????

Is that how thick people have become? Do they still think we went in to save the Iraqis from Saddam!

Its not only ISIS who brainwash people you know.

Look closer to home.

Radicalrooster · 20/07/2015 22:54

Wideopenspace

Race certainly was an issue. From the Independent (fashionably left-wing)

"In most of the cases that the inquiry team examined, the victims were white children under the age of 16 and the perpetrators named in the files as “Asian males”."

A pure coincidence, I suppose? They couldn't find more Muslim girls to abduct, just to keep the score even and maintain their reputation as equal opportunities abusers? Really?

MoreBeta · 20/07/2015 22:56

Radical - I was thinking of the large number of UK forces soldiers that have gone to Iraq and other bits of Africa M. East to work as mercenaries. Not picking which side they fight on but one mercenary is like any other.

Radicalrooster · 20/07/2015 22:56

PurpleTurtle

Show me the figures. Once you can point me to more than $4 trillion in profit from the Iraq war, I'll concede the point.

Until then I'll remain safe in the knowledge that you're deluded.

murasaki · 20/07/2015 22:56

Re integration, both my sister and my parents live next door to muslim families, who are constantly offering food round eid, and even proffered wine at XMas when I was there for the parental annual party. Sis has delivered crumbles, fruit pies etc to her neighbours, always well received, mum and dad drop stuff round, it seems to me to be in both cases, in different cities, just neighbours being nice.

I live in south london, and it all seems nicely integrated to me, at least my bit. I don't see the scary world of cameron. your neighbours are just people, whichever silly sky pixie they choose to look at. Or that's how it seems to me.

Apart from the exorcism they held over the road (outside the swimming pool)in the middle of the night, which to my eternal pissed offness, I slept through. Would have been so at the window with a brandy and a fag and the police on speed dial.

Bar that, live and let live.

murasaki · 20/07/2015 22:59

And if I can get West african food in the pub down the road, integration is working for me.

MMmm. Jollof rice

Radicalrooster · 20/07/2015 22:59

And actually any basic working knowledge of neoconservatism and Straussian political philosophy would suggest that in some respects, yes, it was seen in terms as simple as that. An opportunity to recast the ME according to a political vision that sought to impose freedom at the point of a gun.

Positivelyfatalistic · 20/07/2015 23:19

the timing of David Cameron's speech today on British muslims has more to do with the Welfare Cuts Bill through the House of Commons than anything else. Its a common tactic when trying to pass unpopular measures or laws to first scaremonger and make the population fear an enemy so that the Primeminister/President can paint himself as the nation's protector. Paternalism and patriarchy, so we leave him to it as he knows best and wishes the best for us because he's unafraid to go after the unpopular minority here. i recognise it as its a common tactic of leaders in muslim countries who sometimes have even less manoeuvring space to affect physical material improvement to their citizens lives than our own dear leader has. its much cheaper if nothing to make laws victimising a minority for the sake of the majority's "security" and "moral values" than it is to provide jobs or healthcare. David Cameron, standing up for #Britishvalues and #patriotism, dismantling the welfare state all the while. well bravo the Welfare Cuts Bill has just been passed in parliament half an hour ago. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33604287

YouTheCat · 20/07/2015 23:25

Oh balls Sad

Wideopenspace · 20/07/2015 23:28

That's rubbish.
Utterly rubbish

Positivelyfatalistic · 20/07/2015 23:33

perfect distraction, good day to bury bad news has now been changed to 'lets appeal to the right's xenophobia so as to get these austerity measures passed through'. the radio and tv news has been discussing his speech and collecting soundbites on it all day and meanwhile £12 billion of cuts has managed to be passed through parliament. Dog whistle politics.

OurDearLeader · 20/07/2015 23:58

WideOpenSpace, firstly the Asian girls actually suffered a very different kind of abuse which was largely famial and wasn't organised or done by multiple people, it is the kind of abuse (although terrible) that you find in most communities of most races so it's no surprise that they could find a handful. But they weren't systematically gang raped, trafficked and exploited and weren't abused in anywhere near the numbers that white girls were.

But the main glaringly obvious difference is actually in your post. None of the Asian girls reported abuse to anybody. We know that the white girls and their families repeatedly reported and were ignored. Social Services were asked for help but instead facilitated and enabled the abuse. On at least one occasion the police found a child in bed with her abuser and arrested the child and let the abuser go. On other occasions fathers tried to rescue their children from houses where they were being abused and the fathers were arrested and the children left with the abusers. The authorities were involved in concerted efforts to cover up the crimes against the white girls including pursuing prosecutions for hate crimes against people who said it was happening.

There is absolutely no suggestion that any Asian girl was refused help and ignored, had their abuse facilitated by the authorities or that the authorities engaged in a cover up or tried to hush them up.

Given that the reasons for the cover up and lack of reaction were people fearing being labeled racist, a culture of political correctness and a fear of inflaming racial tensions I suspect that if the victim had been in possesion of a brown face and had reported the reaction would have been somewhat different as that brown face would wash away the concerns they felt when faced with an Asian on white crime. I suspect such a victim wouldn't quite as easily have been dismissed as a 'slag' who was 'asking for it either.

But you keep on deluding yourself even though two reports have said you're wrong...

PurpleTurtles · 21/07/2015 00:05

And there it is. So many people, so busy applauding david Cameron and he has managed to pull the rug from under their feet without them even realising! Yep, carry on blaming lack of integration for all the woes. The cuts will bite you guys in the ass very soon and I don't say that in a gloating way Sad

Wheretheresawill1 · 21/07/2015 00:10

I stand by what I said. In this local area there is segregation. I should not be made to feel like an outsider in my own country. And yes I think the fact they've turned the area into a mini version of their own country with their own shops exclusively is a problem- it is quite clearly marking out territory. Seriously if you don't think this self enforced segregation is not a problem then you are the problem

I've been to homes where nobody speaks English
I find it offensive that any attempts to soften the divide are met with a no thanks
I find it offensive that the man I was seeing who was born in the UK was too scared to introduce me to his family and friends and was posting a dating ad for a Muslim wife
Seriously I tried hard and I have no problems with the religion. The culture is another thing

OurDearLeader · 21/07/2015 00:55

I don't think the shops thing is really an issue. Shops open wherever they can make money. Most British people shop in supermarkets now so our high streets have died. Some communities have a demand for specialist goods you can't get in supermarkets so obviously they are going to have a demand for small specialist shops and where there is money to be made they will open. I don't think it's territorial.

But I do agree with you about your experience of living in a Muslim area and it chimes with mine. Even post Rotherham if people try and speak about experiences like that they will be called wrong and racist just as those who tried to whistleblow in Rotherham were.

I was told by teenage boys to 'get out' because 'this is a muslim area'. I was spat at for walking faster than a man on the street and I overtaking me. I lived on an estate where nobody would say hello to me or look me in the eye except for the one other non-Bangladeshi, a West Indian lady. I was discriminated against at my doctors and by the emergency services, in particular the fire service who wouldn't come out to the regularly burning cars because apparently reporting people who steal, joyride, smash up and then blow up a car every single bloody Saturday is racist.

And my personal favourite.Our friendly local Islamic bookshop across the road was rather fond of playing tapes of sermons. If I opened my windows I would get to spend a lovely day listening to Louis Farrakhan suggesting that the locals might like to kill or maim me, my children, my family. Y'know, anybody white really. Lovely.

The day I moved out of that shithole to move to Hackney was one of the happiest days of my life.

cleanmachine · 21/07/2015 01:19

I find it all very frightening. the language and rhetoric used is very similar to that used when demonising Jews in the 1930s and we all know how that ended.

I live very peacefully and lovingly amongst people of all colours and faiths. I am shocked at Camerons speech. if we are not careful we will be led into another world war and that is not something any of us want ourselves or our children to live through.

PurpleTurtles · 21/07/2015 01:28

The trouble is there are many dimwits applauding david cameron's speech who dont realise how cleverly he has shafted them! this is what you call divide and rule!

PurpleTurtles · 21/07/2015 01:34

Yay, hurray for David Cameron who is making such an amazing stand for integration. The price? Only £12 billion in welfare cuts! I guess it was worth it to go hungry and for many of those praising his speech, it will mean destitution, but hey, as long as he gets the Muslims to integrate better eh!

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