David Cameron has finally admitted that "integration is not working"

[WhetherOrNot]

AIBU to think that he should have cottoned on about 10 years ago, not now when it is so glaringly obvious as to be an embarrassment for everyone?

Ugandan / Kenyan / Tanzanian Asians = those people originally of Indian origin who were & still are residing in East African countries. The majority who came here are Hindus but a fair few are Muslims.

Most of these people are culturally Indian, retaining Gujarati or Kutchi as their first language, wear Indian clothes and eat Indian food etc.

Ah, corrected. Very interesting. I now remember that there is a string Asian population in Kenya? Particularly Sikhs?

I think some communities have integrated really well, whilst others have ideologies incompatible with freedoms of others, eg forced marriages, women as second class citizens, niqab wearing. Ignore the oppressive ideologies at your peril.

What is the moral basis for defending 'British culture' whilst bombing theirs back to the stone age?

You don't ignore them. Anybody who breaks the law gets arrested and prosecuted. You just don't stand in schools in Birmingham all day spouting bollocks. We all know that there are plotters and bombers dotted around here and there. The challenge is to locate them and bring them to justice, not talk about how un-British some parts of some communities are. Living in a tax haven and registering your companies abroad isn't very British either. Why doesn't DC spend some time worrying about that?

Most people in the UK never paid tax. It's fairly un British to have a massive state and high taxes. Income tax was only brought in for a short period to fund a war.

Perhaps if there had been less pandering to, and special treatment for, minorities who chose to come here and more focus on encouraging them to integrate, those minorities would be better disposed to the country they chose to settle in.

1. Please tell me where to go to get the pandering and special treatment, I seem to have lost out.

1. We can only integrate with people who want to integrate with us. So to all the white people on this thread, what have you done to help the integration process along?

We can only integrate with people who want to integrate with us. So to all the white people on this thread, what have you done to help the integration process along? You know the answer to that question is going to be 'some of my best friends are...' don't you.

Yes, tim everyone on mumsnet knew about Idi Amin and the Ugandan Asians. They have done so well and made such a huge contribution to Britain.

What have we whites done to aid integration? One of the main things we can do as parents is ensure our children are in mixed schools which mine are.

The issue of who should be allowed abroad to breed and fight is interesting. I always use the example of Simon Mann who went to Africa to topple a regime and went to prison in Equatorial Guinea but now is back here or yes British soldiers who kill without trial using drones and the like and our ancestors who went to fight in Spain in the Spanish civil war and were heroes. They are dodgy issues. If we could bring it all back to thou shalt not kill and stop interfering in Arab countries and leave them all to kill each other out there that would be a very good start.

Monstrous many minorities have come to this country, some at the same time and from the same region as muslims e.g. the Hindus and Sikhs from Indian subcontinent.

Why is it only the muslims that are having a problem integrating ?

In fact in almost every country where muslims are a minority they appear to have a problem with integration, so this is certainly not something uniquely that the host country is doing wrong, unless of course they are all at fault.

And if you move to a country, the onus is on you as an immigrant to do the integrating. Just like muslims insist that non-muslims must, when moving to an Islamic country.

Also FWIW this country has made numerous concessions to muslims in all areas, from allowing Islamic dress as part of school uniform, to the provision of prayer rooms in almost all institutions, to ignoring animal welfare to appease those who insist on ritual slaughter and to the enshrinement in law of equal rights and opportunities of muslims and anti-discrimination laws. Again far more than any Islamic country has ever done for its minorities, who still nonetheless keep their head down and don't cause trouble. What more exactly would you like in the way of concessions and helping you to integrate ?

A klot of muslims have integrated. They go to my children's private schools. Their mothers are doctors. They don't even cover their head (my cleaner for example and her son is getting on here, doing the same law course at the same place my children did it). So I don't agree all muslims don't integrate but those from rural Pakistan and similar areas rather than well educated Syrians or north Africans have brought their tribal values with them. Education of girls and mixed race/religion schooling will help. I just see this as a temporary blip. More people don't believe in God than do now in the UK and that will continue to be the trend.

I'm not in the uk but I understand perfectly the comment about adopting British values. Here's an example:
I'm a doctor in France and often work weekends in an out of hours walk-in clinic. The cultural norm here is to shake hands when greeting and saying goodbye to someone. The only people who have a problem with this are muslim men. They are perfectly happy to use my skills and knowledge to treat their kids but refuse to respect me enough to shake my hand like they would if one of my male colleagues had been treating them!
I do not discriminate against anyone when treating patients yet patients are allowed to discriminate against me for being female! How is that compatible with our western values of equality?

Indeed Red many muslims have integrated, including many Pakistanis such as my family. The difference is that they keep their faith as a personal and private matter and their identity is not based principally around their religion, even though the latter plays a huge part in how they conduct their everyday life.

So if they / we can and have integrated, why haven't so many others ? Could it be the influence from the separatist Islamists who preach segregation and push for a society run along Islamic principles. Incidentally these groups do operate in my area and I have had friends and family who were once indistinguishable from me in outlook and appearance become deeply conservative, with some bordering on radical fanaticism.

YouTheCat, I am not sure that WhetherOrNot actually has a gripe with Muslims? I think he/she is asking a question to initiate a debate.
Debate is healthy and I think that throwing around "what's your problem with Muslims" is unhelpful. It's exactly this kind of questioning that stunts healthy conversation. Not everyone has to see things the same, do we?

I think David Cameron is not being helpful right now with this new "story telling" of history. Yes there are people who have left UK to go and apparently fight WITH IS just as there are people who have left to go and fight AGAINST IS. Those fighting against have been given media play and welcomed back- why is that??? 2 wrongs dont make a right.

Personally I find this whole "muslims are responsible for all the wrongs in the world right now" stance really offensive and boring. The Western world should of left well alone with Sadaam and his mysterious Weapons of Mass Destruction. It could be argued the world was a safer place back then, to what we have now.
They keep meddling in things they clearly don't understand and look what we have.

Maybe this is therefore distraction politics?

I have no gripe with Muslims - I've never met one (to my knowledge) and I live in an area where you pass a sign coming in that says "Beware - Yere Be Dragons" !!

I see the news. I abhor the face veil and the burkha because it alienates women. I abhor any religion that relegates women to the sidelines as though they were of no consequence.

Apart from that, this thread has gone the way I actually thought it would and I've learned nothing new.

Of course he will be sending us to war next...
I despair the way this country is heading under this bunch of bigots...

Apart from that, this thread has gone the way I actually thought it would and I've learned nothing new. Go, find a local scheme that has English speakers volunteering to chat to new immigrants, meet some immigrants, chat, learn something. FFS you won't learn anything about anything reading the news and posting on MN.

I don't honestly know why you are having an opinion on the face covering/head covering if you have never met a Muslim. Western culture is also shit about women.

So why start a thread about something you have absolutely no knowledge or experience about then, unless you were seeking some education?

The best way forward is to treat people how you'd like to be treated. Treat all people you meet in your day to day life with respect. Don't shy away because they might be a bit different or wear different clothes. And I think that goes across all classes, races, religions and ages.

I can't stand cultures that sideline women either... UK cabinet Women currently hold 5.2 percent of Fortune 500 CEO roles. Those bloody Muslims, running all the Fortune 500 companies and sidelining women.

Islam is fundamentally sexist and damaging to women in a way that it utterly incompatible with our values here in the UK. The fact women have 20% of positions of power in the UK not 50 does not mean we are as bad as the arabs and other women in treatment of women.

However I am happy to live in a country where vicars can read out bible stories about hell for gays and muslims can spout nonsense like women's word in court is worth only half that as a man as long as I retain my right of free speech, my right to draw cartoons of any God and that we encourage immigrants and those who were born here to realise the superiority of Western liberal values.

Where how do you know if you've met a Muslim?

No Daisy I don't think Western culture is 'as bad' as ISIS. I do know that we have a lot more power over what happens here. So let's get our own house in order, be very strict about enforcing our own equality principles and show, rather than bomb, the rest of the world.

About the women's word in Court. That gets spouted a fair amount. Anyone reading the recent Bill Cosby stuff will be aware that some people are unwilling to condemn a man, even when he admits the crime himself. In Bill Cosby's case dozens of women aren't worth his word as far as a lot of people are concerned.

Female leaders of Muslim countries. I'm right that the States still hasn't had a female president, right? Pakistan has. The patriarchy is the problem, not individual religions or systems.

Go, find a local scheme that has English speakers volunteering to chat to new immigrants, meet some immigrants, chat, learn something. said MrsTerryPratchett

Did you not read my post? Unless I travel possibly 75 miles I won't FIND any new immigrants let alone speakers volunteering to chat to them

Where how do you know if you've met a Muslim?

In our village believe me we would know !!!

Have you never, ever travelled outside of your village?