AIBU to want to incinerate a junior colleague

[Boosiehs]

I realise IABU BTW - RANT....

He keeps coming over to me, thinking he has found errors in something I have drafted. I have already told him 5 times that this is not the case and that he is wrong.

If he comes over again can I please use my deathray on him?

Pretty please?

I'm afraid limited, having worked in a number of roles, now a professional one I have never yet seen a manager swear without it being a representation of them being a bit crap, either just in that moment or in general.

I am sure you are a nice person, maybe just not always a good enough manager

Death stares - fine. Swearing at junior members of staff - never, ever fine. It says more about the manager and their crap, bullying management style, and the ethos of the company they work for. Happy work place - yeah pull the other one.

Give him 10 minutes of your time, and show him why you are right.

That's how juniors learn. It is learning at the start of your career. I am continually grateful to those who taught me how to be good at my job.

Yikes, I'm a junior who started on Mon- now even more scared of pissing everyone off! Must try not to be a twat...

So what especially makes a good junior please?!

scatterthenuns

I did! I in fact gave him over 20 mins....

IMHO a good junior takes notes when given instructions, listens carefully, clarifies instructions before acting. Then comes back with questions only when they have given it a good attempt first, and ideally with a list of questions - not one every 2 minutes.

Then takes the feedback of a senior and doesn't make the same mistakes twice (or three times maybe - I'm nice).

Dear Tantrums and Balloons

Isn’t it time to get rid of that colleague on capability???

To the original OP. In certain industries(aviation), challenging senior colleagues is encouraged in order to foster an air of double checking. Medicine is trying to bring it in as is my industry because quite often on cockpit the words “err” or “umm” are heard before a fatal instruction is carried out. Kegworth and Tenerife are quite often cited.

boosiehs he sounds a nightmare. You have complete sympathy.

I had one of these jumped up twats once - had a real issue taking instruction from women.

Hmmm I would go down the toad of hid not understanding as the the issue, couch it in terms of possible retraining or goi g on a course to help him understand
Give him specific instructions to o lay speak at certain times and maybe get your line manager on board too.
Then use the Ray

Thanks for the input. I am content with my management style particularly in regards to doing my own job and supporting all members of my team when a difficult person presented him or herself.

When I talk about a difficult person that might mean an arsehole but more usually meant someone who couldn't do the job who also presented difficulties for the team.

In the first instance I would shout and swear. In the second I'd be kinder but I'd ruthlessly get rid of them for my sake and for the sake of my team.

It's horrible to work alongside people who are shit and even more horrible if your managers aren't prepared to do something about it.

boosiehs questions every 2 minutes after 20 minute explanation would have got my trainees relegated to coffee making and photocopying duties until they learned some manners and respect. I have been retired a while but if this is the norm then I am definitely staying retired.

You do not need a death ray you need a cattle prod so that when you say jump he doesn't even need to ask how high (thinking I may in fact not be very nice ).

My OH is currently working in a heavy engineering environment, he was shocked at the language initially, he isn't sure he can go back now, thinks he will be fired for rudeness.

I think at this stage I would be politely pointing out that whilst you value his enthusiasm, repeatedly coming back on the same point is wasting both of your time, and that he is either questioning your competence or your authority, or both.

I have a fairly senior, high pressured job, and I don't think I have ever either sworn at, or been sworn at in the workplace. Fine for a lighthearted thread, not for actual real life, IMO.

I would love to get rid of the person in question travelling

I have spent 4 of the last 5 years explaining why it is counter productive for her to be a part of team. So she was moved to a different team with a different manager who used to explain the process to her again. But she still came and asked me because "I explained it better"

Eventually during a reshuffle she came back to my team. Our work load has increased 50% in the last 3 months. Our staff numbers have not.

So I am still explaining basic, basic procedures. How to access job folders. How to save documents. How to deal with an out of office reply. How to forward, or BCC another staff member. It is highly frustrating. I have written it down step by step but she still asks. And she doesn't wait until I am free, she interrupts conversations and she cannot do any actual work until I show her. If someone else explains it she says she understands but then 2 minutes later comes to me.

But- our MD loves her. And to be fair she is a lovely woman and has been with the company since the start. But it is more frustrating than I can put into words.

Sorry for the huge rant but it may stop my unprofessional management rearing its head tomorrow now I've got it out here

Junior broker (27) explained something in a very patronising way to our veteran underwriter today ( around 70) along the lines of " it's not quite as easy as that
You see because...."

I felt like jumping in and saying " he's been doing this for 50 years and you have been doing it for about one, you twat"

Didn't though

Tantrums she may be lovely, but those sound like very basic tasks which she is not able to do. That is what performance procedures are for, firstly to identify the problem and improve performance - and only after that look at managing someone out.

The problem with not using them for a very clear cut case, is that if they are used in the future for someone else, there will be a precedent set and they can use her as a comparator.

I didn't lose my cool. It was tactical. Shouting a volley of expletives was the only language he would understand after all else had failed.

Tactically losing your cool. Right. The only failure here is your ability to be a professional.

If you cannot get your point across without shouting expletives, then you really need to look at your 'style' of management. You can justify it as long as you want, but you are the only failure when you lose the ability to be rational, in a senior position.

It amazes me that with the very little legal protection employees have these days, companies are still retaining staff that cannot carry out their jobs adequately.

There is no reason to hang onto a staff member that is so incompetent they make their manager want to swear and shout.

limited, I'm sure you are fundamentally a lovely and decent person but you do come across as quite arrogant in your belief that you're a good manager, despite the majority (if not all) of people disagreeing with your approach. I don't think shouting and swearing at people in the workplace is good management at all. It's rude, arrogant and disrespectful. Don't you believe in treating others how you want to be treated? Would you treat others in your day to day life in this way, like your GP or shop staff as I asked earlier? If you wouldn't, why do you think it's acceptable to talk to staff in this way? I sincerely think you're putting yourself at risk of a grievance which would be indefensible.

It amazes me that with the huge amount of management training available, managers are still unable to keep their tempers in the workplace.

If you can't stand the heat...

Oh god I had one of these a couple of years back and drove me demented. She thought she was the bees knees, but continued to ask the same questions about systems and processes for 3 bloody years. Didn't make any difference how we explained it, wrote it down for her with pictures, she just didn't get it. Turned up to meetings without a notebook, handed over a project with only half the information, you name it we had it.

I used to dream of burying her under the car park

I must admit I did finally lose it with her the day she shortened my name (think Patti instead of Patrician). NOBODY shortens my name.

I massively prefer traditional, robust management styles to the the fluffy HR-approved hypocrisy that passes for management in most large organisations now. I'm an intelligent adult and I get well-rewarded for what I do. I can cope with being told a piece of work is bollocks. Having to shoehorn everything I say and do into the latest favourite acronym/mantra/vision and values shit, however, really doesn't work for me.

TBH I think almost everyone in a managerial position has had people who are severely challenging. And managing them properly invariably involves the 80/20 rule. I actually fist pumped the day I found out one of my team was taking early retirement (because she was absolutely useless, I had tried everything, and she thought she was the bees fucking knees). I currently have a very junior member of staff who has been giving me the silent treatment for over 6 months (and in truth, it is utter bliss ).

Yes to imaginary death ray guns
Yes to bitching about it to my poor DH
Yes to quaffing a glass of wine when I get in from work ...

But to me, being a manager isn't just about managing others, it is also managing myself and my responses to people. Much as there are times when I would like to say 'just fucking do it, and do it well' I don't. You can still be assertive, direct and challenging without having to swear at staff.

As much as I think its gonna turn this thread horrible, I'll say that I genuinely reckon it's most often men telling women how to do their "job", rather than the other way around. And that's clear sexism, small as it is.

I keep being told I'm wrong, that I can't do -blank-, that -blank- doesnt work that way, that actually -blank- method is preferable to -blank-. Doesnt matter that I'm always proven right in the end, I have men tell me how to do my job nearly every single day... At one point a man who doesn't even understand half of what I do tried telling me to "try it a different way", and then got shirty with me when I told him to bog off.

Some people are just untrainable. Worked with a new grad once who thought he was the bees knees. He aspired to have "letters after his name"

He once tried to tell one of our seniors that she was wrong and he knew better. He'd been with the company for a month, she's worked here for 15 years.

He had so little attention to detail it was unbelievable. I spent longer sorting out his fuck ups than it would have taken me to do the task myself. I would have willingly incinerated him. He was also the nosiest bastard I have ever met.

IME of both training juniors and being a junior, the best tips are to take notes, even for things that seem easy, listen, and ask questions, but not the same ones over and over!

limited, I'm sure you are fundamentally a lovely and decent person

Thank you.

I think I am too. I imagine you are a manager too and are applying your management techniques to me.

I am happy with my own management techniques that are different to yours.

It amazes me that with the very little legal protection employees have these days, companies are still retaining staff that cannot carry out their jobs adequately.

^^ This!

There is no reason to hang onto a staff member that is so incompetent they make their manager want to swear and shout.

It's the sort of bullshit which happens when control and responsibility aren't aligned, as in Skiptonlass's example of her interview shortlist's being ignored!