to give a limited number of religious vetos for school trips

[mini321]

My DS's school is trying to organise a school trip to the far east to encourage the development of new language courses they have put on offer recently.

The person organising quite a complicated trip is being asked by a number of parents about not flying on certain days, not using public transport on those days when away, asking that all food follows religious rules for their children - I feel the organiser will spend more time accommodating this group to the detriment of the trip as a whole.

My memories of trips to the Far East is all about the food because it is so different, seems a shame half the group will miss out but that is their concern I guess.

AIBU to suggest we put a limit to the number of restrictions? (slightly tongue in cheek here ) but would be interested if any other parents have encountered anything similar?

Maybe the atheists should get some protection from too many restrictions foisted upon them.

So don't fucking dare say it's meaningless, as it's not meaningless to me, nor is it to many others.

Love the tolerance of views other than your own. But that's religion for you.

For anyone who wants to sensibly debate, in my opinion the whole concept of "inherited" belief is flawed. Beliefs, in particular those without evidence to back them up, that are little more than longstanding superstitions, should not be automatically subscribed to your children.

Jessie McJessie -

that level of observance tends to signify closed and insular communities and not people open to international cultural exchange

If they were that insular they wouldn't be sending their kids to a non-Jewish school. And if they weren't keen to go, the whole thread wouldn't be relevant.

I really don't see the issue here. The Jewish kids can go to Chabad House or similar on Saturday morning and for lunch. The others can do something else and then they can meet up for a walking trip of the city in the afternoon.

I really am not sure how you accommodate a trip to be sure there's no travel on certain days (unless it's for a short period) or that food will be kosher. If they are moderately religious they might be ok with a youngster sticking to fish or veggie food and making sure there's no milk after a meat meal. But if they are are strictly observant then that may not be enough for them. I know people who won't eat out unless the restaurant/hotel etc is kosher. in which case, they're stuffed. I think there can be reasonable attempts made to meet reasonable requests, but it's very hard for these to be guaranteed. What if there was a delay that meant travel arrangements went over into the start of Sabbath on a Friday for instance? It just can't be helped.

No problem, Annie. This thread has been an interesting read, but I began to feel I'd need a shower if I didn't post.

Not reading the ft because frankly why give that the headspace. But yes op YABU. And by U I mean sharing a prejudice against members of a certain minority faith which shall remain nameless because for some reason op thinks it sounds less racist to talk in general but not actually general term.

Cactus, 30 seconds on Google will reveal that there are only 5 races,

1. Mongoloid (Asian and American Indian) 2) Caucasoid (European) 3) Australoid (Australian and oceanic) 4) Negroid (east African black)
2. Capoid (south African black).

I have no doubt that there a Jewish people within all 5 of these.

TTWK

For anyone who wants to sensibly debate, in my opinion the whole concept of "inherited" belief is flawed. Beliefs, in particular those without evidence to back them up, that are little more than longstanding superstitions, should not be automatically subscribed to your children.

I know you feel vair rational and all that. So. While you're here, what I want to know is, how come people of your mindset never turn up on message boards when the (celebrity) atheist son or daughter of Jewish parents is discussed in derogatory terms. How come no-one ever turns up and says "Judaism is purely a matter of faith. Have you any evidence this person actually believes in a deity? No? Well, stop insulting them then, purely as a matter of technicality, please"?

No, it's always Jewish people themselves who are told they can't count as Jews. Skinhead toughs are obviously too difficult to engage on this philosophical matter.

As far as I can tell from the OP, they are still at the exploratory stage and assessing whether the trip can be more inclusive.

I don't understand why you just don't let this exploratory phase take its course. If they can source kosher food (I would have through that the local Beijing Chabad would be able to provide some pre-packed food that they could take with them if traveling around China. Not hugely healthy - but they can survive on crisis and biscuits for a few days), and if the Jewish kids can just opt to stay in the hotel on Shabbat while the other carry on with the trip, then all seems good and the Jewish kids can join the trip.

If this can't be done. They they can't go

But nothing wrong with investigating possibilities.

And yes, your OP was goady, as you seemed to be dismissing of them even investigating possibilities.

TTWK in my more militant atheistic moments, I agree about the non-heritability of belief. But Cactus and other atheist Jews did not inherit a belief. And upthread she said that she hadn't exactly inherited a culture, either, as you pointed out.

Nevertheless, I entirely accept the phrase: "I am an atheist Jew". Can't we say that there's something important about a Jewish identity which is not to do with belief in god? There are things outside my experience which I accept, and this is one of them. Perhaps it's to do with history. In our lifetimes, Judaism has been treated as a racial identity (subject to the kind of 'one drop' rules which saw people with any African ancestry enslaved in the United States, whatever the colour of their skin). In 1930s Germany, "Jew" wasn't a chosen religious position, but a label attached to people of whatever faith with any Jewish ancestry.

TTWK you said: Jews are not a race. There are black Jews in the USA and Africa, and blonde Jews in Sweden... You can look at someone's DNA and guess what religion they are likely to be, but no more than that.

But you can't really tell "race" from DNA - to some extent it's a social construct, just like gender. You could look at someone's DNA, find that a decent share of a person's ancestry came from Africa, and then still be looking at a face most of us would label "white". And since race and religion are social constructs, why does it hurt your worldview so much to let Cactus be what she is - an atheist Jew?

I'm an atheist; I get angry with the way religious positions are given priority over other moral positions; I wish religion were offered to children as a choice, rather than a fait accomplis. BUT I think there's something weird/mean about denying Cactus her identity. It feels to me a bit like saying 'gay people don't have heterosexual relationships, so if you've ever had sex with a member of the opposite sex, you can't be gay'. I think life's richer and more complicated than you've made out.

Gosh, this thread is getting bizarre. I don't think what OP originally asked is unreasonable and I can't see any anti-semitism in it. Just wants to know if it's ok to restrict religious conditions on a trip or not.

I am from an Orthodox Jewish family but my parents brought us up as atheists. I am Jewish but non-practicing. Imo, if religious dietary, travel and other requirements are so specific then it's UR to expect a non-faith school to accommodate them.

I know there is anti-semitism but there is absolutely masses of it, if you are determined to find it, I think.

They are just INVESTIGATING what could be accommodated

But this seems to be too much for the OP and other posters in this thread.

lettshopetheyallgeton if they choose to send the kids to a non Jewish school then they have to accept they can't have it both ways and expect that school to accommodate Jewish customs when planning excursions. But then I also find vegetarians moaning about Chinese lack of understanding of what that means to be tedious- if you spend time in another culture you adapt to its ways or you accept it is not for you and don't go.

They are not expecting the school to be accommodating.

They are just asking whether it would be possible to accommodate them

Can you not see the difference?

Or should they just put up and shut up?

*I'm an atheist; I get angry with the way religious positions are given priority over other moral positions; I wish religion were offered to children as a choice, rather than a fait accomplis. BUT I think there's something weird/mean about denying Cactus her identity. It feels to me a bit like saying 'gay people don't have heterosexual relationships, so if you've ever had sex with a member of the opposite sex, you can't be gay'. I think life's richer and more complicated than you've made out.

I'm sure Cactus isn't sobbing into her pillow because someone on an internet forum doesn't think she's Jewish. I doubt she cares.

In my opinion, someone who doesn't believe in Judaism isn't Jewish, as someone who eats meat isn't a vegetarian. The fact that their parents, grandparents etc were all vegetarian doesn't matter. If vegetarian law stated that the children of vegetarians are still vegetarians regardless of what they eat, it still wouldn't alter my view.

That is my opinion. Other opinions are available.

But Jews are not a race. No religion is. There are black Jews, white Jews, and I wouldn't mind betting there's a Jewish community in China and Alaska. There are ashkinasi jews from Eastern Europe, and saffardic Jews from Spain/Portugal. These diverse peoples cannot all be connected by race. They are connected by a common belief system.

I think the tour company is trying to make the tour accommodating to increase its appeal and quite likely reduce the costs for everyone else. No big deal, one would think. As for Chinese lack of understanding, I don't think it is valid to complain about other people eating animals that we wouldn't, but it is reasonable to mention that they might not tell you what is in the food. It's not just the far East. Many Bavarians don't consider bacon to be meat, but if you ask if there is bacon in something they will generally tell you.

If the Jewish people's invisible friend is forcing them to follow absurd rules about food and Shabbat and so on, surely it is the invisible friend who is being anti-Semitic.

Domino

Emm

Cactus I also don't have the patience to explain to you how your posts are rude and condescending.
Op may have agreed, or not it depends how you read the post, she still never actually made the attack.
You however make passive aggressive remarks to everybody who doesnt agree with you.