to give a limited number of religious vetos for school trips

[mini321]

My DS's school is trying to organise a school trip to the far east to encourage the development of new language courses they have put on offer recently.

The person organising quite a complicated trip is being asked by a number of parents about not flying on certain days, not using public transport on those days when away, asking that all food follows religious rules for their children - I feel the organiser will spend more time accommodating this group to the detriment of the trip as a whole.

My memories of trips to the Far East is all about the food because it is so different, seems a shame half the group will miss out but that is their concern I guess.

AIBU to suggest we put a limit to the number of restrictions? (slightly tongue in cheek here ) but would be interested if any other parents have encountered anything similar?

Maybe the atheists should get some protection from too many restrictions foisted upon them.

TTWK - I won't be goaded on your "no such thing as Jewish children" remark, but how do you know that it's the parents imposing the rules on their kids. Assuming they are in secondary school , they almost certainly have their own views, which may well be stricter than their parents' practices.

How many atheists point blank refuse to allow their children Christmas celebrations or Easter? I don't think cultural but no longer religious identity should be impossible to understand.

TTWK - Jewish people are also an ethno-cultural group, it is NOT just a religious group, and therefore there is such a thing as being born Jewish.

Therefore it's perfectly acceptable for Cactus to describe herself as an atheist Jew, because she does not identify with the religion, but she is culturally Jewish.

I am a secular Jew, specifically I identify as a Humanistic Jew, I celebrate my Jewishness from a cultural and historical perspective, but not a religious one.

Quite frankly, you don't have the right to tell anyone they can't identify as Jewish, especially as you lack the understanding of what it is to be Jewish.

mini321
CactusThe take away for you is not to throw vile names around without good reason - indeed is there ever a reason? Just argue your point and others can judge.

I have now put this thread all on one page, so I can go through it again, and I still can't find any "vile names". Can you clarify what you mean? I can see you underhandedly implying she has mental health issues or something, which I frankly found unpleasant, but no "vile names".

Surely you can't mean this phrase, where I can see Annie was extremely polite and took care to clarify that her issue was with your posts, not you as a person: unlike your posts which all come across as snipey, ignorant and frankly racist?

Are you one of those people who thinks calling behaviour racist is as vile as being racially abusive?

I think you can be born Muslim / Jewish / Hindu but not Christian . Why is it that the first three are ethno-cultural (which I agree that they are but the Jewish group is the most obvious one to me) but the fourth isn't? Or is being Christian an ethno cultural thing as well - genuine question? What about Buddhist and Sikh?

Basically could someone please enlighten me on the link between all religions and culture/ethnicity ?

Therefore it's perfectly acceptable for Cactus to describe herself as an atheist Jew, because she does not identify with the religion, but she is culturally Jewish.

I made the point about cultural Jewishness, but she rejected it! But nice that you are agreeing with me.

Quite frankly, you don't have the right to tell anyone they can't identify as Jewish, especially as you lack the understanding of what it is to be Jewish.

Quite frankly, people can identify themselves as Jewish, Muslim, or Marshan if they get a kick out of it. That is their right. And I have an absolute right to tell them I think they are wrong. It's called having an opinion.

As far as I am concerned, if you don't believe in god, you aren't Jewish. I don't care if you never eat bacon, and look like the lovechild of David Baddiel and Lesley Joseph. You can be culturally Jewish, play cards all night, drive a Volvo and refuse to leave Stamford Hill, but if you've rejected Judaism, you ain't Jewish.

It's the same as people who say "I'm half Jewish." My reply... ...make up your mind, are you waiting for the messiah or aren't you?

Well unsurprisingly this thread has taken a horrible turn.

I am a practising Jew and my children (born Jewish, as was i) go to religious schools precisely because of the attitudes and ignorance displayed on this thread.

Taking away all the offensive stuff that has been flying around, it's actually not that hard to accommodate. Meals for those kids would be ordered in and no travelling on shabbat. It seems fairly straightforward to me, particularly if it's being organised by a professional, so I don't get the fuss. It's not like they're asking for a full on shabbat service.

People like Cactus are really scary.

Anyway, ignoring the derailment. I would say YABU to request limitations, because if you are in a mulitcultural school the school should be able to anticipate its students possible requirements - asking the kids to forgo on aspects of their religion isn't acceptable, though I can understand for the majority it can be seen as an "inconvenience", this is just the way it is for a multicultural school/organisation.
I used to work as a tour operator for the far east (creating bespoke travel itineraries for people from all walks of life). OP, if the people organising your trip have any experience, it is very tricky sometimes to organise trips with specific requirements to countries such as China, but not impossible - the kosher side of things will be hard for them to source though and I would assume the itinerary would need to be tailored to either detour/be in citites that can accomodate kosher needs (which aren't many in China), or they be asked to bring pre-packed food for certain legs of the trip to GUARANTEE they will have what they need. We also arranged travel quite easily to not travel on certain days - the clients would use these days for other things as opposed to travelling, and it was a nice break out of the itinerary for them.

The travel side of things though is easy to accomodate. It means the kids will get some respite on some days as travel in that part of the world can be long arduous hours stuffed in a coach, so I'm sure they'll be glad of rest days.

It's perfectly possible to be a non-practising Jew - my mum's (now dead and much missed) partner was Jewish but had not practised any religious faith for many years.

I think as it's reasonable to accommodate requests as long as they are reasonable, don't give rise to conflicts, and don't add significantly to the cost of the trip or inconvenience other students.

Arranging kosher food is reasonable, if it's practical to do so, and assuming that it doesn't add massively to the cost. Not travelling on a particular say is clearly unreasonable; what are the other students supposed to do that day?

I have a friend who describes herself as secular Jewish. Her family have some issues as her husband is Catholic and she insists the children celebrate Jewish festivals as it is only "fair" as her husband takes them to Christian festivals. The difference is he is religious, I think it is a difficult one as she obviously believes the children are Jewish as their mother is Jewish but her husband feels that as he is the one with a religious faith it is reasonable for him to celebrate his faith with them. Not easy at all.

Cactus I did attended a Catholic primary, my grammar school was a great compromise I think as all religions were celebrated and respected and it is a tradition that goes on to this day. My only objection was that we had to attend the assembly of our stated religion and sometimes I would have liked to be a member of the larger school community and not "one of the Catholic girls." As tolerant as my school was they would not have allowed people to break the uniform regulations, I remember a girl starting at the school, her parents weren't British, I think they were East European, and she made the terrible mistake of coming to school in grey socks when she should have worn beige. She was hauled out in front of the class and given a talk on the importance of following the rules. Bit OTT for my taste although the teacher wasn't nasty about it. Of course the 1960s was a different world in many ways. Us working class, mainly immigrant girls, were expected to be grateful for the chance to go to grammar school so rules had to be followed. I find it strange now when I go back to my home city and see the young mums with buggies all covered up in black with their faces hidden. I think "I might have gone to school with your mum and she would have been wearing knee socks and skirts above the knee."

My children attended non faith schools as I am a fan of children being educated in their community school and dealing with religion at home. Each to his own so I wouldn't ban religious schools.

Ihatemyselfsomuch People like Cactus are really scary.
What, sarcastic people? Yes, but they can be great fun at parties.

P.S. mini321 you don't want to engage with my post because you have no answer - which is what other readers will also conclude when they read the link in my last post.

This other reader chortled. I've seen and heard But I have black friends used as a defence when someone was pulled up on comments*, but "I said something nice in another thread" is a rarer variant.

*Oddly, this is especially common when the person has been asked to stop making racially derogatory comments about Asian people. They appear to think "having a black friend" gives them a free pass to abuse anyone who isn't black or white?

I am a practising Jew and my children (born Jewish, as was i)

If you found out tomorrow you'd been adopted by your parents, having been abandoned at a railway station, would you be less Jewish?

Are people who convert to Judaism less Jewish? And if so, are a convert's children "born Jewish"?

I have family in China, if you think anyone will be assured of vegetarian food then you are naive. When you ask for certain dietary requirements they will tell you one thing and serve you another. The children will break their religion dietary wise going there so the parents must decide whether that is acceptable. Just as a matter of interest, how much will this trip cost. I might suggest it to our school if it is an achievable amount.

gumroad.com/l/jewishchina This book might help the organiser.

TTWK - well under Jewish law, people who are born Jewish and identify as Jewish, are Jewish. Whether they practice the religious is neither here nor there.

Your opinion is therefore irrelevant. Or have I missed the announcement that you're now Chief Rabbi and have changed Jewish law?

MarmiteamdJamislush I'm intrigued to hear more about Torah Observant Christians (and koshered kettles)- is that similar to Jews for Jesus but coming at it from the opposite angle?

In response to the OP I think that it all depends on whether the accommodation of the Jewish kids will disadvantage the non -Jewish ones. It would be a huge shame if the non Jewish children's experience of China were curtailed in any way. I am actually surprised however that parents who are so observant would want their children to undertake such a trip at all, since that level of observance tends to signify closed and insular communities and not people open to international cultural exchange.

Yanbu, this is ridiculous. The trip should be planned without religious considerations, then if there are slight adjustments needed for religious reasons then no problem, but to stipulate days of no travel etc?! It makes the trip unworkable imo, perhaps the parents can pay for a separate nanny to pander to individual wishes.

If you found out tomorrow you'd been adopted by your parents, having been abandoned at a railway station, would you be less Jewish?

When Jewish parents adopt non jewish babies, the conversion process is comparitively simple. So if I found out I was adopted I would still identify as religiously Jewish, but the genetic screening I had before ttc would have been supreme waste of NHS money.

Conversion in itself is more complicated than you probably understand. If you had any understanding of what is involved in an orthodox conversion you could never ask whether I view these people as 'less Jewish'. That said, they probably don't need the genetic screening either.

There is, as much as you deny it, a difference between the religion and the race.

Who Is a Jew?

Here's a snippet...

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship.

TTWK, try reading this:

bfy.tw/mtX

You can't just redefine words how you fancy, there are agreed meanings that have been so for centuries. That's why things like dictionaries and um, talking to each other can exist.

Or is your goal on this thread not about communication at all?

TTWK - well under Jewish law, people who are born Jewish and identify as Jewish, are Jewish. Whether they practice the religious is neither here nor there. Your opinion is therefore irrelevant. Or have I missed the announcement that you're now Chief Rabbi and have changed Jewish law?

Cordelia, it's a circular argument to quote religious law on what makes you a member. I could start the TTWK religion tomorrow and make it TTWK religious law that anyone who has interacted with me on a forum is a member! I could then claim you were a member of my religion. And you could say "I couldn't give a toss what your religious law is, I'm not a member of the TTWK religion."

I can say you are, citing my religion's law, and you could deny it. It's all meaningless.

Cactus is noname the op?? Didn't think so. She didn't even agree to that statement.
Try reading the names of people posting before you state things.

kali110

The OP did agree. NoNameDame goes, Am I the only one thinking[...]?
Then the OP specifically quoted that sentence and said 'No' (followed by some characters that don't display properly for me).

If I say, "Am I the only person who wants ice-cream?" and you say "No", then I will ask the nice man in the ice cream van for two magnums; one for you and one for me. Because you've said you want ice cream too.

It might seem meaningless to you, but thankfully, you are not the one who decides these things.

It matters to me, to identify as Jewish, as part of the preservation and rebuilding of my people. My grandmother survived the Shoah, her parents and siblings all perished. My grandfather and his younger brother were brought to the UK on Kindertransport before the outbreak of the war. The rest of their family perished in the Shoah. So don't fucking dare say it's meaningless, as it's not meaningless to me, nor is it to many others.