to be think the head teacher is wrong (TT holiday)

[Thancred]

We've booked a week long holiday for mid-September. I filled in a leave request form at school citing the reasons for the absence. DH can't get any leave until September, they have a lot of term time workers so the year round staff aren't allowed to take more than one or two days off in school holidays unless it's an emergency/sickness. In addition to this we have a DC with ASD who cannot cope with how busy everywhere is in school holidays, even day trips in school holidays are a nightmare if it's somewhere too busy or loud so he ends up miserable or melting down and we have to come home early - a week of that without the option of escaping back home would be horrid for him. So we made the decision that the only way we will get a family holiday is to go in TT when it is quieter and when DH can get the time off work.

We've had a letter back from the head this afternoon and she has rejected it outright. I rang up to discuss it and she has said she does not consider any of it to be a good enough reason. I explained about the ASD issues and her response was "that's life, if xxx can't cope with in the school holidays then don't go".

I've rang the LEA for advice and they've stated that under their guidance it would be classed as exceptional circumstances but they can't overturn the heads decision so we will probably be passed over to them for a fine to be issued.

AIBU to be annoyed at the head? Does anyone know if fines can be appealed once issued?

And just because one poster's child with autism copes with holidays during August doesn't mean the op's child will.
As the saying goes, 'if you know one child with autism...you know one child with autism.'

Please can You make sure any biscuits are GFCF!

The equality act absolutely allows for people with protected characteristics, in this case disability, to be treated more favourably than your average bod if not doing so would put that person at a disadvantage.

It should apply to school time holiday authorisation but has not been explicitly included therefore it will probably take someone going to court to get it clarified.

Fwiw considering the way in which our education system lets down sen children and the amount of education that is lost for them due to lack of funding, obstruction, lack of provision etc not allow holidays is perverse.

Evening all
Bit of peace and love please

Kardamyli I don;t want to pick on you, and I only said FFS because you said it! You asked a question which I ahve already answered but I will try again, you said...

italian how do you think schools and classes would operate if everyone just decided to take their children out of school for holidays whenever they felt like it?

Firstly I am not suggesting that. I am saying all families should have the right to a week or two per year to take holiday when they wish, if they wish.

Most families cannot afford a great number of holidays and I would not agree with families taking kids out just left right and centre because I do think that is disruptive for the kids. But the annual holiday and/or occasional visits to places like Science Museum in London would be fine to me. Especially relevant to people on low incomes who may not be able to afford a holiday otherwise. And especially relevant to families whose children (or the parents) have additional needs.

Re Would you expect the school to tutor each child individually in the topics they had missed while away?

No, I would expect that many topics be regularly reviewed in some way shape or form, no one day should be the only time that a child hears about a major topic. The children who are away could access information on what has been missed. If they are old enough to do so, and if not then I think it is unlikely to be utterly key, and if deemed really important parents should have enough information of what our kids are being taught to be able to find that information and pass it on.

How does fining anyone help this? It does not.

Re Or perhaps just tutor each child individually from the start, that way holidays at random times could be built into each child's personal timetable.

Not at all, I have taught children and adults on a one to one basis and I feel generally it does not offer as much opportunity as group work generally for mainstream education. And it would not be cost effective.

Re And whilst I agree that there are many things other than the three rs which contribute to a well rounded education, a package holiday is not likely to broaden anyone's horizons.

I am not sure why you think people would all be going on a package holiday and even so, I went on a package holiday to Greece. An amazing, beautiful country, with a long history and amazing culture, a wide heritage and whose language I once (unsuccessfully studied). It was good. Package just means your flight, food and accommodation, what children experience is so much more.

Just for what it is worth I think everyone's opinion is valid, but if a person has no experience of a situation, such as having a child with ASD they may feel that they are not always qualified to know what would work for such a family.

[Grin]

thread now BORING

I am a govenor at a special school who have previously granted holidays. From September they have their hands tied as the government have cut down, they are no longer allowed to issue tt holidays at all and the head has to turn them down.

As your reasons for needing to go on hol in term time are due to circumstances not due to the cheaper holidays (which is why some people ask for term time) and obviously if you didn't have these reasons you would go in the school holidays surely the unexpected saving from term time costs will counter balance your fine.

Well done sazza76 for doing a tough voluntary job.

You see, this is the problem I have with the terminology...
...a special school who have previously granted holidays. From September they have their hands tied as the government have cut down, they are no longer allowed to issue tt holidays at all and the head has to turn them down.

So she is not really turning down the requests, why are the requests sent to her if she only has one choice, to turn then down? Why are these requests not sent to whomever has the power to change things - Ofsted or the government maybe?

I am genuinely surprised no one has mounted any kind of challenge on disability rights?

I totally agree Italiangreyhound. It's rediculous, being a special school the head has always previously been very understanding regarding the need for term time holidays. All of a sudden her control is gone but will still be on the receiving end of the requests and everything else that comes with turning people down.
Thank you Italiangreyhound, I find it all really interesting and quite enjoy it most of the time

Personally, I think it's wrong to send your child to a mainstream school if you then take them out, against the schools wishes, because you think they can't cope.

You should be working with the school so this isn't necessary. Schools cannot function if the parents don't work with it.

I also think citing people as discriminating against people with disability because they point out inconsistencies with the idea that the child needs to go on holiday in the middle of the first month back is ridiculous. How would it work on a court of law? A person with a disability is exempt from cross examination?

Having a disability does not mean you are outside society. It also does not mean exactly the same rules necessarily apply. Equal does not mean being the same. Mainstream rules do not necessarily apply to children in mainstream schools, just because they are in those schools. That's the purpose of inclusion.

This, I just don't agree with in the context of term time holidays. I don't see holidays as a necessity and I think October half term would probably have been quieter plus I think it shows the school a lack of respect, when they are trying to sort out issues to just pull the child out anyway.

I knows this has been done to death but I just want to say a few things as it seems to have restarted.
Thousands of parents who have children with special needs at mainstream schools had no choice but for them to be there due to the abysmal lack of sen schools and sen placements. It is a huge issue in our country. So saying parents that CHOOSE to put their children there should follow by the rules doesnt apply.
Secondly SOME children with autism absolutely 100% cannot cope with holidays at busy times. The fact that this has been well recognised by professionals for at least the last 10 plus years says a lot. These people have more understanding of autism and life with an autistic child in the family than most people on here saying they shouldnt be treated differently.
October half term when it is cold and miserable is not a fair alternative to summer holidays and is also busy.
I can see this ending up going further because it is a disability rights issue. Inclusion doesnt mean having to do the same it means reasonable adjustmants are made to make life more equal.
Life for children with Autism is bloody hard, those who have sensory processing issues have it really tough. Noises that for most of us we ignore actually cause them physical pain, the same with lights. Crowds can make them physically ill and terrified. Often they don't understand social rules, something as simple as being on a crowded playground is so so hard. Often children with asd are constantly anxious, they dont know where the next frightening thing might come from or when. Often they have NO sense of danger, you try keeping a hyperactive child with no social awareness or sense of danger safe on a crowded beach or pool or even street. Some children with asd cant even speak they spend their lives not being able to get their words out.
Having a child with asd in the family can be absolutely exhausting, often they are very poor sleepers, they need watching every single second of every day, they have appointments and therapies, you spend your whole life thinking ahead to what might cause an issue for them.
I'm not saying this is the case for every child with asd of course not, it needs to be assesed on an individual basis. But it is the case for my son and a lot of families I know.

I dont understand why so many people have an issue because I can gaurantee you wouldnt want to swap places. children without special needs who get to have holidays will grow up having happy memories of family holidays, this is all we want for our children. It is that simple. Equality.

Brilliant post sazza.

This thread and the ignorance on it just makes me feel so weary. I have a 12 year old ds who first showed symptoms age 3 so I have been dealing with it for 9 years now and it never really changes

And Frankie yes SN and its impact is just SO boring isn't it? Perhaps sticking to style and beauty and multiple anecdotes regarding your often mentioned position as a JP/magistrate or whatever you are might be the answer for you?

But...occasional visits to places like Science Museum in London would be fine to me.

although it's just as busy in term-time because of all the school parties!

I think the op is u to have already booked, and have chosen September, but would have thought another time of year might work. And I agree with people who've suggested half terms.

Just bloody well go op what's the worst that can happen a small fine, so what?!

But half term is just as busy and it's cold. Who wants up spend their whole life being restricted to only having their summer holiday in October?

A lot of people don't seem to understand the concept of the law. It's not just about ensuring that disabled people can access the same experiences. It's about creating more of a level playing field. So effectively trying to ensure that a disabled child can have access to a family summer holiday in the same way that non disabled children are. So for a child in a wheelchair this often means enduring that public buildings and newly built cafés etc are accessible. But for children with severe sensory issues where everyday low level noise that we never think about actually physically hurts them, this means allowing them to access to that summer holiday at a time when holiday spots are not swarming with millions of other children

But the flip side is that all children have a right to an education. No parents have the right to say, actually, I've decided that you are not going to get your education this week. That's not how it works. Parents have an obligation to make sure that children (even children with SN) are able to exercise their right to an education. That means not taking them out of school when it's easier to have a holiday in TT.

Gosh what a thread!!!
Thancred I hope you haven't taken some of these posts to heart... I completely sympathise with your situation however were I in your shoes I wouldn't have booked the holiday without asking the school first.
I am also agreeing with those who say September isn't a good time... I would have thought your little boy would have needed to be at school during the establishment of the new routines too . Despite this you know your son better than anyone and I feel that it is a great shame that the system doesn't allow for some flexibility . I wish you luck with this and ignore the unpleasantness on this thread if you can. ????

Oh ... The question marks were supposed to be a bunch of flowers!

theycallme, so even though for some children the only possibility of a holiday free from anxiety (as much as possible) is one taken when the vast majority of other children are in school, then they should just suck it up and their family never have the chance of a break that's relatively normal?

Have you read all the posts saying how HTs in schools who cater for children with asd totally understand this issue and authorise these holidays?

I don't think some posters understand that for some children with autism, walking into a room with a bright light can be like another child being slapped on the face. If there's 20 kids in that venue chatting and playing in normal voices it can literally feel like someone is standing against each ear screaming at the top of their voice. The physical pain cause by that low level normal chatter can be unbearable.
It's hard to comprehend if you have no experience of severe sensory issues but it's incredibly debilitating.

YABU. Get on with it, you are doing no favours to your child or the teacher ref catch up. Holiday either in October half term or have days out.

So what happens when you (a general "you" not specific to the OP) have more than one child?

I have a DD with ASD. I have an elder DS.

We have booked our holiday during the school holidays - going to great lengths to sort out travel arrangments and a holiday which will minimise stress - although I have had to accept that taking her out of her normal enviroment and routine will inevitably cause problems. Its not going to be two weeks relaxing by the pool not matter how much I wish it could be!

But we have to factor in our DS needs - I couldn't justify choosing a time which would benefit her but which would detrimentally impact on him.

And I suppose we would have got double the fine.

So we have made compromises and adjustments - and will be hoping for the best.

I don't think your BU to go on holiday in term time for the reasons you've explained - but with the caveat that September is a weird month to choose. I understand that the start of term can be hard but so many routines are established in the early weeks of term its not just the academic stuff.

Apricota, what do you mean days out? Why, days out?

And when should these 'days out' take place? When they cannot take place during August.