lets try again with the anti islamophobia, shall we!

[karbonfootprint]

Well, I did start a thread about this recently, but it is full of discussion about terrorists, and events in other countries......

Just talking about this country, the UK, and Muslim and non Muslim British people, lets just look after each other, and stand up for each other against intolerance and racism, and be friends!

I think they are upset by the suggestion that most Muslims are extremists/complicit/somehow condoning terrorism

And if that really is suggested, muslims (and everyone else for that matter) would have every reason to be upset

But look what happens on MN ... again and again someone posts this allegation, together with claims of racism, hatred, supposedly demanded apologies and much more, then when they're asked to back it up there's often an attempt to deflect the question, or just no reply at all

Puzzled - posters did back it up and gem was gracious enough to apologise. No point being part of a thread but refusing to read it. More to the point, why don't you answer some of the questions raised by Muslim posters?

The first response of the Muslim communities in Britain appears to be the circling of wagons.

Consider the two families that have gone to Syria. The opening bid is "they haven't gone to Syria, there's no evidence". Then it's "they have been tricked or abducted, they wouldn't have gone of their own accord". Then it's "we didn't know anything, how could we have known, it must be the videos one of them was watching" Then it's "Well, we knew they were extremists, but not that extreme". Then it's "Well, of course, everyone knew they were extremists".

It just looks shifty.

A clear statement of "They were extremists, they don't represent anyone but themselves, and this country is well rid of them" would (a) probably be more accurate as a reflection of general Muslim feelings and (b) stop most of the suspicion. As it stands, we're left with the impression that they are a lot more representative than they presumably actually are.

Puzzles, I don't think we are referring to anything which has been said on this thread per se, but the defensive attitude some posters have taken when we have pointed to erroneous perceptions of Muslims in British society as a whole.

A clear statement of [...] Well yes, that would've been better. But not everyone is trained to deal with the press/British public in such a neat way, and I imagine their initial reaction would have been fear.

That was one isolated instance, cleanmachine ... now what about all the others, or even just my own at 12.40? As I've said so often, if someone's going to make accusations it's helpful to be able to substantiate them

But not everyone is trained to deal with the press/British public in such a neat way

You'd hope, however, that the lawyer acting as a spokesman was. In each case, the families lawyered up instantly, so had a skilled spokesman on hand.

But lushilaoshi surely most normal people genuinely don't want to think that all muslims are apologists for extremism ... they don't want people to be "othered" ... and they certainly don't want folk to live in isolated, inward-looking communities. As the OP suggested (age ago, it seems!!) what most of us want is to live together decently, addressing problems as and where they arise

The effort's got to come from everyone, though - which is why it seems a shame that suggestions for dealing with extremists (a "tiny minority" remember) are so often seen as a widespread attack

Gemauve said it for me!

When the fuck will people stop beginning sentences with "the Muslim community says....". There is no such thing as a homogeneous Muslim community. Muslims in the UK come from a lot of different backgrounds. For example some of the Muslims in my ds's school are from relatively uneducated families who have come from rural Pakistan, and frankly have some pretty unacceptable attitudes. My dh and his circle of friends come from affluent highly educated families from the Middle East. The difference between them is night and day and I'm damned if I'll let my family be lumped in with some of the Muslims who have come to this country and tried to keep living like they did in their home country.
The problem with this country is we have allowed a large number of people to come and live here who have no loyalty or appreciation. They have exploited our freedoms and tolerance. They refuse to integrate because, frankly, they think they are better than us. That is not all Muslims but there are an awful lot. I would rather have a discussion about getting these communities to integrate and preventing more people coming who want to reap the economic benefits of the UK without respecting our way of life than another discussion about Islamaphobia.

If I am honest, I think Islamophobic people are getting all their opinions reinforced every time their is a family that moves to Syria, a terror attack or a Rotherham type scandal.

I can't see things improving Britain is becoming less tolerant to Islam and people are really hateful at the moment.

I read that 30% of people believe Britain would be better off without Islam and 25% do not trust Muslims.

In my opinion liberal pc types are to blame for the rise of islamophobia by allowing Muslims not to integrate and turning a blind eye to Rotherham.

It's a shame.

Of course many want to 'other' people puzzle, how naive. It is an excellent way of scapegoating: explaining the world in such a way that you don't need to examine your own shortcomings too deeply. Rather than looking at our own attitudes towards other countries and cultures, we lump all Muslims in the same category and tell them to sort it out. When in fact I don't think it is an entirely Muslim issue: it's a much wider issue and the whole world needs to take responsibility for dealing with it.

And as for lawyers being trained to deal with the press, I'm a lawyer and no, we're not.

Most religions discriminate against women, not sure why Islam always gets stuck with this point

because most christian nations are either totally or mostly secular, so the misogyny is less intrusive. islam, however, has a political component to it so gets tied up with laws and governments.

Great OP. I think it would be great to see Muslim children from Islamic schools going on day visits to churches, synagogues, Hindu and Sikh temples and spending days learning about Spiritualism, Scientology, Rastafarianism, Satanism and Paganism. I think it would be great to see them learning about other cultures and beliefs and as you say, we all have to look after each other and we need to be open and accepting of other beliefs and fight against intolerance and racism. Once the Islamic schools have been introduced to all these different cultures and beliefs, we can start on the Jewish children and so on and so forth. We can become one huge, loving, tolerant country where everybody is accepted and loved.

Word kill but Islam is not a religion based on love. Mohammed married a 9 year old (making him a pedophile) he thought battles and killed people.

Compare that to Jesus who was never violent.

That's why Christains, Sikhs, Buddhists are never as violent.

Also how can one be tolerant to a very intolerant religion.

Where was the tolerance to the Rotherham girls or the British tourists.

Oh FFS Ambar, sod off with your inflammatory 'Christianity is a much better religion than Islam because Jesus was such a lovely fluffy wuffy kind of guy and Muhammed was a paedophile' bollocks. You are SO ignorant, I'm not even going to go into how ridiculous your statements are.

And Lem I hear you about Muslims all being lumped into a single category. My husband is a Chinese Muslim - couldn't be more different from many of the Muslims here in the Middle East.

As far as I can see we have been far too tolerant of intolerance. I am glad schools and other institutions have been told to be on the look out for hatred and intolerance. We shouldn't tolerate it.

So lush and lem, should we worrying about Islam in Britiain and worry instead about Pakistani-heritage culture?

For clarity, that's not a rhetorical question, nor is it an attempt to force people into a "yes, we should be more racist" when did you stop beating your wife question. Is it the case that in the UK our problem is not Islam, but Pakistani-heritage culture?

According to Sunni scriptural Hadith sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when she was married to Muhammad and nine when the marriage was consummated.[11][12][13][14][10][21] For example, Sahih al-Bukhari, considered by many Sunni Muslims as the most authentic book after Quran, states: Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

And I'm not Christian i practice a form of Buddhism.

However I admire the teachings of Jesus

Lush your not going to talk about my statement because it was a correct statement.

Ambar - I am sure most Muslims would have absolutely no problem with their children learning about other religions like Scientology, Judaism, Satanism or Hinduism. Why would they? Only intolerant people wouldn't want to learn about other cultures and belief systems!

I agree word kill but to compare Islam to the other religions is ludicrous it is a much more violent and dicrimintive religion.

The Quran says taking sex slaves is okay if the women is non muslim. Now think about Rotherham.