AIBU to think people should say what they fucking mean?

[LashesandLipstick]

Inspired by threads in which I was told asking a question is rude because "people feel awkward saying no" and "if the person wants to, offer to do it yourself and if they want to they'll tell you not to and offer instead"

AIBU to think people shouldn't play these stupid games? Just say what you mean for Christs sake. I'm sure an adult can take you politely saying no to a request. All this does is cause confusion and create weird social norms that make no sense and confuse the hell out of people who aren't neurotypical or who are foreign.

Stop it.

Midnight if you don't want to comment on the thread, don't, I really don't care about you not liking me

Gemauve but the explanations don't make sense. I'm not just going to say "okay I agree" if I think it's rubbish.

The best answer was someone posted a link to the asker and guesser theory. My next question would be what makes some cultures guessers and some askers, and look to find out why it develops like that

No idea why some people are so offended by curiousity

At least you have the balls to call me a twat, unexpected from someone who can't say "no"

Gemauve but the explanations don't make sense

So why are you demanding that people explain things to you, when you're so convinced that you're right?

"Anon but the only reason it doesn't work is "convention" which when analysed is illogical, culturally variable and out dated. So that's not a good reason"

But convention is how we live our lives Lashes. And convention works for most of us because we understand and follow the rules. When people don't understand the rules, it causes communication problems and that's where you encounter difficulties.

Here's another example of a cultural difference. In Ireland you're taught (from a very young age) that it's impolite to ask for food or a drink. So you visit a friend or neighbour and they ask, "Will you have a cup of tea or something to eat?". You say, "No I'm grand" even though you're starving. Your host rightly assumes that you're just being polite and puts on the kettle and proceeds to serve up a three course meal. Everyone's happy. I have absolutely no idea why we do this and it makes no sense at all. But that's the 'rule' by which we live. The TV programme Fr. Ted takes the piss out of this with Mrs. Doyle and her "Will you have a cup of tea...."

However, it causes problems when other people don't understand these rules. So, a friend visited some relatives in the UK and was asked if she wanted some food. She replied in the negative and was then very put out and hungry when her relative took her at her word and didn't serve up any food. She realized that she was operating by rules that don't apply in the UK. The next time she was asked if she wanted food she broke her own rule and said, "Well, yes, actually I will".

The assertive no goes to the heart of your question, Lashes.

When I ask very directly for something because I "ought to be able to be direct without offending someone" (my paraphrase), I am behaving aggressively, defined as privileging my needs over the needs of the other person.

They may well respond passively: saying yes when they don't really want to, and thus privileging my needs over theirs. Or, they may say yes but find a way to not do it, acting passive-aggressively by appearing to privilege my needs over theirs while actually doing the opposite.

If I take the time to phrase my initial question assertively, balancing my needs with theirs, I am more likely to induce an assertive response that does the same.

Lashes - you don't know that your friends aren't offended you just know they haven't told you that they are offended. and given that various posters have said they wouldn't risk telling you they were offended, I think it's worth at least considering that they might be offended/put out and not have told you.

Not inviting someone to my house isn't passive aggressive or nasty. An invitation to someone's house is a gift in way, and one that most people don't get (Most people I know have never been invited round for dinner - I just don't have the time). Anyone who accepts that gift with rudeness or demands doesn't get the gift again. And no I probably wouldn't bother explaining - because I don't have to justify to anyone who I choose to invite to my home; I don't owe anyone an invite for me to cook them dinner and I don't have to explain to them why if I choose not to offer them one. And also because when I've tried explaining to you the imposition you may well cause it has been met with an argumentative and self-righteous attitude with no consideration for the person who you are asking to take on extra work for you and who you admit you will judge if they say no. My time is too precious to have conversations like that IRL

I wouldn't really care because I would hope they know me well enough to not get personally offended at a no, and if they do, then they're obviously not worth my time anyway.

Anon it's never been an issue because my friends aren't offended by a simple question.

But we're not talking exclusively about close friends, or at least that's not what you asked nor was it in the thread that inspired this one. I gave you an example of why someone might be personally offended at an honest 'no' earlier in the thread - can you see why that would make the lives of everyone involved difficult?

Gemauve because I'm trying to find out WHY the convention exists

Tayto that's interesting - to me it seems like mind games. I'd be really annoyed if I said I didn't want anything and it got given to me, I'd feel awkward

Iv rtft and I'm totally fucking clueless what you are arguing about op.

Going to look for original thread to try figure it out!

Anon, most friends I have are as straight up as me. So I'd certainly expect to hear about it if I had offended someone.

I just think you should at least tell someone - if you're big enough to exclude someone you're big enough to be honest about it.

Dojo with your explanation I can see that's difficult but I don't see why the people have to be so bloody enigmatic in the first place. But this is where we get the convention vs logic argument

What a boring world we would live in if everyone behaved logically. Human emotions aren't logical.

Yeah how terrible if everything made sense

Gemauve because I'm trying to find out WHY the convention exists

It just does. Why do in some countries men's and women's clothes fasten in opposite directions, but not in others? Why do computer keyboards have the entirely useless caps lock key taking up a huge amount of space when the far more useful control key is marginalised? Why motorbike gear levers almost universally on the left these days when they used to be on the right? In each of these cases you could live a perfectly decent life in a world in which the conventions were reversed, but you live in a world in which the arbitrary choice has been made. Why do men wear ties while women largely don't? Why do we drive on the left?

Gemauve to those of us with enquiring mind, it just does isn't an answer. Some of us like to know why!

But there's nothing enigmatic about it - I tolerate this woman because we work together and it would be worse for both of us if I said how I felt about her. The convention is logical because it prevents an untenable working situation and makes the environment more pleasant for everyone - that's how the convention came about and that's why it stays.

It's the same with the food thread - the OP likes the partner of the person who has made what she feels is an unreasonable request. To tell the partner the truth - that she thinks he's got a bloody nerve asking her to make an additional dish to suit his partner - would put a strain on their relationship and possibly introduce an awkwardness into their whole group. The convention of trying to find a way to refuse without upsetting him is logical, because it allows everyone to continue enjoying the group without a rift between two members that would make it hard to relax and enjoy each other's company.

Lashes, you may also want to spend some time learning about Myers Briggs T and F preferences. T type often struggle to understand why F types are not "more logical". F types wonder why T types are so bloody rude. My advice to T types is always: "treat other people's feelings as part of the fact base on which you base your decisions or you are not being truly rational". Wasting time complaining that someone else ought not to be offended by a statement is no more rational than wasting time complaining that it ought not to rain on a summer's day. It is what it is, and the only relevant question is, are you going to take an umbrella?

"Tayto that's interesting - to me it seems like mind games. I'd be really annoyed if I said I didn't want anything and it got given to me, I'd feel awkward"

It is a mind game. But we've been playing this mind game since we were small children so by the time we get to adults we're experts at it. It's second nature to us. We don't even have to think about the rules - they're ingrained in us. The only time we have to think about it is when we encounter people from other cultures who play by different rules. Or children who don't understand the rules. But we make allowances for children because we realize that they are only learning the rules.

This obviously puts you at a major disadvantage since you don't understand the rules. But you're not a child so it's expected that you know the rules.

Gemauve to those of us with enquiring mind, it just does isn't an answer. Some of us like to know why!

So why are you asking people on this thread for a definitive explanation of a convention has existed for hundreds, if not thousands, of years?

How is anyone here supposed to know?

If you have a genuine interest in this area Lashes, I would suggest enrolling on an evening course in sociology at your local college/university. You will be introduced to boundless theories about social discourse and societal norms.

You can argue and theorise with other like minded people to your heart's content.

Lashes - I have 8 places around my dinner table, so with me and DP that would be 6 guests. I have many more than 6 friends. Any time I decide to ask people round for dinner am I really expected to send 6 invitations and several hundred explanations to other people as to why they haven't been invited? Personally I would find that rather odd. And if someone sent me a message saying I wasn't being invited again because they find me rude, yes I would find it hurtful. So why would I put someone else in the position of being hurt (or alternatively in the position of arguing with me and telling me that I'm wrong for finding them rude like you are doing) when I could just quietly not invite them without creating a fuss? It really does feel like you just like create to drama rather than taking the least disruptive option.

www.knowyourtype.com/myers-briggs/8_preferences-html/feeling-preference/

www.knowyourtype.com/myers-briggs/8_preferences-html/thinking-preference/

I think these very clearly describe what is going on for you, Lashes

MBTI is not very scientific but I personally find it exceptionally practically helpful, day to day

My advice to T types is always: "treat other people's feelings as part of the fact base on which you base your decisions or you are not being truly rational".

How do you tell F types to proceed?

Dojo, trying to find a way to refuse without upsetting him is logical. Someone posted about how to say no without being rude and it's a good post. I'm on about the "ill do it but I'll be angry and this person shouldn't have asked!!!!" Thing.

Home that's interesting, I usually come out as an ENFP but I wonder if I'm actually a T. Will read this

Tayto I think I'd have more sympathy if people were okay with people not knowing. I wonder if being bought up in a family of very direct speakers has affected my view - if people think I'M blunt they'd hate my dad, even I wince at how...tactless he can be. But my family is full of non NTs so I've never had any social rules explained really

Pumpkin thanks, that's a really good idea. I think I'd find it interesting

Anon fair enough, I was thinking more of my group, we're a small group and it would be really obvious if someone wasn't included!

To answer your question about the message because I feel it's right. If I'd offended I'd like to know. How can they apologise if they don't know? It's not creating drama it's having decency.

But maybe others would prefer not to know