AIBU to think people should say what they fucking mean?

[LashesandLipstick]

Inspired by threads in which I was told asking a question is rude because "people feel awkward saying no" and "if the person wants to, offer to do it yourself and if they want to they'll tell you not to and offer instead"

AIBU to think people shouldn't play these stupid games? Just say what you mean for Christs sake. I'm sure an adult can take you politely saying no to a request. All this does is cause confusion and create weird social norms that make no sense and confuse the hell out of people who aren't neurotypical or who are foreign.

Stop it.

I think it's easier to accept cultural norms when they support your own personal needs and values, without even knowing what they are or thinking about them. Looking at some of the changes to those norms in my lifetime:

Take being gay for example, as I was growing in the 60s and 70s, although homosexual acts were no longer illegal, it still was something society and straight people found "distasteful" and homophobia was probably seen as social norm. Because a large group of people were impacted by this very negative norm and challenged that status quo, and the arts and music world (those awful celebs,interestingly) took a more progressive view, that society norm shifted and changed.

Regional accents being seen as class indicator, or someone who was a bit thick. Again the impact of the media changed this perception at a both conscious and unconscious level. The driver behind this change was no doubt education being used as a mechanism to make society more equal, having a posh accent was no longer an indication of attainment of a good education. It was beneficial to the majority of people that this attitude or value judgement changed.

Cultural norms that are detrimental to a vocal or influential group of people will be challenged and changed. Sometimes a society recognises that a norm is unfair and disadvantages a minority group too and will work together to shift those norms.

It's interesting to see the number of discussions on MN around these such as SN or Feminism. Sometimes we take something we all think is not really a problem, but then see it from someone else's point of view and make an effort to change and adapt that norm.

There has been a lot of talk on this thread about some of the more negative norms in the UK - such as being overly polite, indirect in speech and non-confrontational. The more positive values that are a result of these norms are our ability to see something from someone else's point of view, embrace different cultures and values, and concern for the underdog.

Id like you to try thinking about it another way to see if that makes more sense:
Some people go along with social norms because thats what they want to do anyway. They would do those things even if it wasnt the norm. You're not automatically one of the herd simply because you happen to be running the same way.

"I suppose it's how I feel when certain feminists try telling me I've been "brainwashed" because I genuinely enjoy certain traditionally feminine things"

You are doing exactly what those certain feminists do to you - saying that the only reason you do not rebel against all social norms all the time is because you're a sheep and just haven't managed to realise or think for yourself. Its a social norm to usually eat meat that has been cooked. I also want to eat meat that has been cooked for a number of reasons. I don't need to rebel against this norm because it happens to align with what I already wish to do. If I wear makeup or a dress, I'm not being a sheep blindly conforming, it's because that's what I want to do. The fact it aligns with the social norm may be convenient but it's not the only reason I'm doing it. I also reject many social norms totally because they happen to not suit me.

Thank you silver and storm :) those posts are informative and actually explain some of the issues.

Because a large group of people were impacted by this very negative norm and challenged that status quo, and the arts and music world (those awful celebs,interestingly) took a more progressive view, that society norm shifted and changed.
Very good point I hadn't considered

If you learn a simple trick, Scout, you'll get along a lot better with all kinds of folks. You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view. . . until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.

You amuse me lashes.

Is that wrong? Do you want me to explain it?

I'll try but I can't promise that you'll understand.

PausingFlatly Glad to hear you looked him up :) He is an interesting character, without him we wouldn't have Magna Carta; it's a shame he's been overlooked for so long.

He was the influence for the film A Knight's Tale starring Heath Ledger though, but it is very, very loosely based on his life.

I'll shut up now

Limited no it's not wrong, I don't particularly want an explanation. But you're free to find me amusing

Noooo Saskia! One of the few movies so rubbish I've switched off!

people don't 'follow' cultural norms or the impacts of their socialisation as if it's a diet

Some people with ASDs do have to learn everything about acceptable social interactions, very little of it coming naturally or "making sense" from their particular pov.

Additionally - despite the raging debate about what empathy means and whether people with ASDs have it, it's very common for the conditions to make "walking in someone else's shoes" impossible. Functional approximations can be achieved (for most, to one degree or another) through learning.

All this learning and remembering is obviously quite taxing. That's a very big part of the reason many people with ASDs can only handle social situations in small doses! If it's not coming naturally, it's hard work.

You can be aware of the size and shape of Kim Kardashian's bum and the theories of John Nash.

I also love A Knight's Tale while having studied Chaucer.

I pity people whose brains explode at the concept.

Garlick - thanks and sorry, I should have been more precise in my language and made it clear I wasn't referring to all people - just the ones Lashes was dismissing as unthinking sheep for behaving in a way she doesn't approve of.

You can be aware of the size and shape of Kim Kardashian's bum and the theories of John Nash.

Me please! Me please! I also love Center Stage, am pretty good on the history of how the Bible was compiled, and am now considering a sideline in filthy but meticulously researched French Resistance/SOE fanfic.

Cheers, Jassy :) I've been thinking Lashes might benefit from Thomas Harris's little book, I'm OK, You're OK. It's based on Transactional Analysis, which is game theory for personal interactions - therefore not as amenable to probability calculations as the mathematical sort, although closely linked in types of games.

"I'm OK, you're OK" seems to be fundamental to your issue, Lashes. It's a small book, easy to read. Here's the Wikipedia page.

now considering a sideline in filthy but meticulously researched French Resistance/SOE fanfic.

Oh, write it, write it It's the only way I can ever learn any history!

Thanks Garlick, I'll have a look :)

Thanks to you, Jassy, Romanoff, Dojo, Silver and others who have actually discussed this issue properly from various viewpoints without assuming I'm a massive arsehole. I appreciate the discussion :)

Ooh, that's a really interesting suggestion. Nice.

Oh, write it, write it grin It's the only way I can ever learn any history!

Oh god this is really going to happen.

I'm a massive arsehole

Don't restrict yourself lashes.

You could have quite a tight arsehole for all I know.

What's more worrying, limited, is I still don't know who Kim Kardashian is and I can name another 90s Nobel prizewinner for economics off the top of my head (Amartya Sen).

I've failed, haven't I? I'll always think for myself and never fit in?

I've also thought Transactional Analysis would be useful as a way of exploring the issues we've been discussing here.

I would also recommend by Eric Berne: The Games People Play; and What Do You Say After Saying Hello.

I had an embarrassing moment earlier re: John Nash... I am a great fan of his work, but was unaware that he had MH problems...then realised you weren't talking about the artist (brother of Paul Nash). But then I had never been that sure of who Kim K was until last weekend when I was googling Kanye West

Yeah, Pausing, you're fucked. Sorry.

PausingFlatly KK is famous for having a bottom and wearing clothes. I don't know what her real job is though.

"filthy but meticulously researched French Resistance/SOE fanfic."

I would so read that! Please write it!

PausingFlatly KK is famous for having a bottom and wearing clothes. I don't know what her real job is though.

I think it's basically that.

So, I know how I'm spending my maternity leave...

PausingFlatly You haven't failed as much as me.

My list of Nobel prize winners goes:

Marie Curie for physics;

The two Northern Irish women who won the Peace Prize and then fell out;

Paul Newman for literature. He didn't actually win it. He was in an Alfred Hitchcock thriller about an author cum spy thingy. It neither one of Newman's or Hitchcock's best.

Er, that's it.

I've visited the hall in Stockholm where they present the awards.

I should know a few Physics ones, as my DH name drops sometimes, and gossips about who felt snubbed, but cannot actually remember one.