AIBU to think people should say what they fucking mean?

[LashesandLipstick]

Inspired by threads in which I was told asking a question is rude because "people feel awkward saying no" and "if the person wants to, offer to do it yourself and if they want to they'll tell you not to and offer instead"

AIBU to think people shouldn't play these stupid games? Just say what you mean for Christs sake. I'm sure an adult can take you politely saying no to a request. All this does is cause confusion and create weird social norms that make no sense and confuse the hell out of people who aren't neurotypical or who are foreign.

Stop it.

"I can't eat that, could you maybe cook me a chicken breast please?"

Doesn't feel like a yes or no question. It feels like a thinly veiled order. Very hard to say no to without feeling like a bad host.

Lashes, I'm going to paraphrase my response to you from another thread.

There are no inherent 'right' or 'wrong' reactions to situations, it's tied up in culture and socialisation and social norms. It feels not that you want to understand why people behave in the way they do, you want them to behave in a way that makes sense to you.

You seem reluctant to accept that they're behaving in a way that makes sense to them, and instead want them to modify their behaviour to a framework that makes sense to you.

I'm foreign. There are things that British people do that seem very odd to me, and they react in ways that would never happened back home. Neither my way or the British way is right or wrong. They're just different.

I don't fight it. I accept it, and I think it's a decent thing to do to try to interact with people in a way that they find comfortable and polite, if I can. If I'm socialising with people, I don't want to make them feel uncomfortable or appear rude myself, so I moderate what seems 'reasonable' to me.

For me, it's recognising that my norms and needs are not the focal point of my interactions, and therefore expecting or demanding people to engage on my terms is unproductive and can be a little obnoxious. If I want a mutually beneficial outcome, understanding how the other person 'heard' what I'm saying is pretty important.

Can I ask why you refer to 'NTs'? To me, it feels like if I referred to 'ASDs' it would be rude and offensive.

Dojo, trying to find a way to refuse without upsetting him is logical. Someone posted about how to say no without being rude and it's a good post. I'm on about the "ill do it but I'll be angry and this person shouldn't have asked!!!!" Thing.

So back to the dinner thing...... Suppose I'm the host and have already put time, effort and thought into coming up with a menu that will cause me just enough work without it being too much work. Then one of my guests asks me to take quite a bit of extra work and extra consideration, juggling things around in order to make them happy. I don't want to do that - it will be a nightmare logistically and is going to turn a happy relaxed occasion into one where I'm feeling over-worked, put-upon and tense. However the guest's attitude has made it clear (whether they realise it or not) that if I refuse they will see me as being "unfair" and "harsh". Also that they may argue with me about how simple a job this actually is for me.

So I have two choices. I either say no and accept that this guest may cause me more stress and work by arguing with me and is likely to affect the atmosphere of the meal for everyone else, so making all my efforts completely worthless and making other people uncomfortable. Or I can suck it up - take on the extra work, over-work myself, not really enjoy the occasion but say nothing and everyone else has a good time. Personally I'd probably do the latter because I'd want the other guests not to have their evening marred, but yes I'd be pissed off with the guest who had put me in that position.

When you ask someone to do something for you there is very rarely an option where they get to say no and there isn't a knock-on consequence (particularly if you - as you admit - are going to judge them for saying no). People who choose to comply with your request may often be doing so simply to avoid the knock-on consequence. One that could have been avoided if you'd shown some consideration and not asked in the first place.

"But my family is full of non NTs so I've never had any social rules explained really"

If you explain that to people, I'm sure they'd make allowances for you. I would, anyway. But it's probably a bit of a drag having to explain it to everyone you encounter.

My Dad has a neighbour who is lovely. She's very friendly and if I meet her on the street she always stops to ask me how I'm keeping. Something about these encounters really bothered me and I couldn't figure it out for a while. Eventually I realized what it was. She stands too close to me for comfort. So I move away a little bit. Then she moves a bit closer. Then I move away again. We'd been doing this little dance for ages before I figured it out . Now that I understand the issue, I permit her to stand close to me (even though it makes me a bit uncomfortable) as the logical part of my brain understands that she's not a threat and is able to override the instinctive part of my brain that tells me to move away.

Lashes, based on your poss here, E and P make sense, but you do strike me as much more of a T than an F, based on the views you've expressed here

Pumpkin: I usually remind them that Ts are just fiercely committed to the truth as they see it ... And that the whole point of MBTI is that no preference is either right or wrong.

Poss = posts

Jassy I genuinely do want to understand but I don't feel a lot of answers really get to it, instead just saying "because it is".

As a foreign person what do you find weird about British culture? I'm curious.

while ASDs might offend some, it's quite common for us to refer to ourselves as NDs (neurodiverse). NT isn't an insult it just literally means someone who doesn't have ADHD, ASD, and related issues

Anon, if you used the no someone explained here, example

"I know you struggle with food butcan't make that because I have too many dishes to cook, so instead you're welcome to bring your own food"

That way you say no, the guest won't be offended, you won't have to do something you don't want to do.

I wouldn't think THAT was unfair - I might think "oh that's a shame she's too busy, but at least I can bring my own food!"

And if someone DOES moan about you saying that, then they're being a PITA and you have every right to tell them so

Home, reading it ENTP seems pretty likely actually. Thanks

*Anon, if you used the no someone explained here, example

"I know you struggle with food but can't make that because I have too many dishes to cook, so instead you're welcome to bring your own food"

That way you say no, the guest won't be offended, you won't have to do something you don't want to do.*

You can't say that " no the guest won't be offended". You can say that you wouldn't be offended but you can't speak for anyone else. And I think we've pretty much all concluded (even you) that your judgement as to who will or won't be offended by what, isn't necessarily typical. You said yourself that you would consider it "unfair" and "harsh" if someone said no to you. On the thread you have gone on to argue how making a whole other meal isn't really a big deal. So I think many people would be wary of saying no.

And if someone DOES moan about you saying that, then they're being a PITA and you have every right to tell them so

Why is your judgement of what counts as being a PITA the only one that matters? Personally I think asking someone else to produce a different meal for you is being a PITA. Other people agree. You have simply told us that we are wrong. Why do you think we should all ignore where we think the PITA line is drawn and simply accept where you tell us it should be drawn?

Also you haven't liked it - or accepted it - when other people have told you that your behaviour is a PITA - so what makes you feel that someone else would like or accept being told that their behaviour is a PITA? And that is the reason people simply comply with unreasonable requests - to avoid the whole atmosphere when you make it clear their behaviour/request is a PITA and it causes tensions.

I don't want to have to tell my guests that there behaviour is a PITA - I don't see that as being my role (or certainly not the role I want) Instead I want my guests to show some consideration and not engage in what is (or what they have been told is) PITA behaviour.

As others have said, it actually is very logical - etiquette and politeness strategy function in order to 'oil the wheels' of social life. There is a whole academic field within linguistics devoted to politeness strategy, indirect requests, positive and negative face saving in social interactions, etc. It is all absolutely logical, and as within any culture, conventions that develop in order to avoid common pitfalls in social interaction do so over many, many generations. So it also becomes part of cultural identity. As others have pointed out, the origins of such behaviour lie in balancing ones needs and desires against those of others. So being cooperative vs prioritising ones own interests. I'd say it is comparable to the threat posed by impure drinking water throughout history. The far East came up with tea, Western societies became beer brewers. Same problem, different approach.

I'm aware NT isn't an insult - but I wouldn't use ASD as a noun to describe a person - I'd say 'a person with ASD' unless I was part of the group in question. I'm probably a little sensitive about the use of language to achieve 'othering', and in this case it's not a big deal as NT people are undeniably the group with social privilege. But it can really distance groups from each other.

I find many, many things weird about British culture!

How much do you understand about socialisation? I think reading around why people understand and behave to cultural norms might be really helpful to you then understand why some things come across to people as rude, or aggressive, or why certain behaviours are valued.

It feels like that may be the missing step - you're trying to make sense of the cultural and social norms themselves, without understanding why people's behaviour is modified to them as part of the process of socialisation.

Jassy i can see that it could create an us and them debate, would it be better to say "a person who is NT" vs "NTs"?

It feels like that may be the missing step - you're trying to make sense of the cultural and social norms themselves, without understanding why people's behaviour is modified to them as part of the process of socialisation.

Thank you. I feel this has really got to the bottom of what I'm trying to ask! With socialisation I know some very basic stuff but nothing in depth, or at least nothing past basic sociology. I think your suggestion might be the best, as it's the theory behind why I'm interested in. I think sometimes it's hard to get across what I'm really asking online

Jassy i can see that it could create an us and them debate, would it be better to say "a person who is NT" vs "NTs"?

For me, I always try to go for an adjective so that I'm not defining a person by the characteristic being discussed. I don't think 'NTs' is automatically offensive for the reasons of privilege stated earlier - but it was the formulation that struck me as I wasn't clear of the intent behind it.

But then, as I say, I'm probably over-sensitive having had a brother who was commonly referred to as 'one of those spastics'.

Why does the convention of not just saying a blunt "no" exist?
Well because communication is a tool used not just to convey meaning but also to take into account of the sensibilities of the recipient of that communication. That's why we tailor language according to different situations.
In the dinner party thread, the OP could have just said a blunt "no". At one point you were emphatically posting that this would be unfair, which is not logical, as you Were only considering one side of the situation.
Had OP been brutally honest, the response might have been "what a rude thing to ask! I'm already making fifteen different courses. Exactly where do you get off even thinking I've either got the time or inclination to pander to your partners whims. Have you forgotten how rude he was when I made that macaroni cheese for him? Honestly, you are so inconsiderate I'm just so hurt that you could even think such a thing, far less suggest it to me. Can't you see how much work I've already got and here you are, wanting to give me even more work. I can't believe you."

And that is why society works more effectively by not saying exactly what you think, because otherwise you alienate people. The conventions may not fit your definition of logical, but then it is illogical to try to apply logic to human emotions.

Language is a tool. You can use it with brute force and ride roughshod over others, priding yourself on your honesty. Or you can use it with finesse and treat your listeners with kindness and consideration even when delivering a message they may not wish to hear. It's your choice. But as all your posts centre solely upon yourself and have no consideration of others, then you may be happy with your approach.

Jassy that's very unfair about your brother, people shouldn't be so nasty

Cardinal i did say in that thread if OP said man could bring his own food that would be fine. You can also say no politely "I can't as I'm cooking loads of dishes and have no room, however if you want to bring your own food that's fine"

I'm not suggesting deliberately being nasty. But it would be nice if people wouldn't say things like "I'm fine" when they're not or agree to things they don't want to.

I'm going to read up on some stuff though as I find this topic interesting, and don't understand why people follow convention

I'm not suggesting deliberately being nasty. But it would be nice if people wouldn't say things like "I'm fine" when they're not or agree to things they don't want to.

Lashes, there's the trap again. It would be nice for you. But for a lot of people it would be exactly the opposite.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politeness_theory

For the uninitiated

"I'm going to read up on some stuff though as I find this topic interesting, and don't understand why people follow convention"

Without convention I simply wouldn't be able to function. It would be like trying to play a board game without following the rules. if you don't follow the rules, then how do you play it?

I agree that it's an interesting topic. I studied linguistics in college and I found the lectures and books on non-verbal communication (body language) particularly interesting.

People don't 'follow convention'. Conventions have arisen from thousands of years of social interactions as the most acceptable way of interacting for that group. Social evolution. It's not predetermined, but it works, on the whole. There is no point wafting around your exoskeleton, railing at the endoskeletons.

I'm not suggesting deliberately being nasty. But it would be nice if people wouldn't say things like "I'm fine" when they're not or agree to things they don't want to.

But where do you draw the line between being honest and being nasty? If you appreciate and understand that there is a point at which this line should be drawn, then it is not that far from understanding that convention is just a widespread agreement over where that is.

We all have our personal limits of what we are comfortable with in terms of honesty, but for most people, those fall within a reasonable distance of each other which is where the convention originates. There will always be outliers - you might be one of them - but the fact remains that most people are comfortable with roughly the same levels of honesty which is why those become the levels at which 'conventions' are set.

I find this topic interesting, and don't understand why people follow convention

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"I'm not suggesting deliberately being nasty. But it would be nice if people wouldn't say things like "I'm fine" when they're not or agree to things they don't want to."

I agree with Dojo, however I do find this interesting. A good friend from a middle eastern country used to repeatedly ask during the course of a conversation how I was. I didn't get this, until at some point he explained that back home people would ask this expecting to really know - if you were feeling crap or had worries you should share it early on, allow your friend to offer comfort, moral support and or practical advice, and then with the air cleared everyone could move onto lighter stuff. It promotes authentic communication and connectedness. It was a revelation - it was so far outside of my own framework of what was appropriate and how another person might view the prospect of someone unloading. Really illustrated, I felt, how we can take our own social conventions for granted, and there are many other perfectly acceptable ways of doing things. Although of course within any given culture, the key thing is that members of a community understand the rules and what is expected by and of others! Consensus is essential, and of course when this is not present, this is where intercultural misunderstanding and faux pas occur.

The stuff that has come up on this thread: politeness theory, conventions, exoskeletal analogies, Middle Eastern social norms....has been utterly fascinating. It has been a grumpy thread at times, but worth persisting with. I've learned a lot. Thanks, all!

(This was me telling it how I see it, btw )

So to answer OPs question about why people follow convention.. It's about being on the same page and working within a common framework of values and reference points. Every culture has conventions that members of that community consciously or unconsciously recognise. Observing conventions signals membership of a cultural community and shared identity and social norms.