Picky guest. Rude and ill-mannered or within his rights?

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Gah. I am throwing a themed dinner party for friends from a particular interest. (A bit like a medieval feast for people from a 12th Century interest group.) The menu is complicated and of the 'Take one plucked flamingo' school of recipes. It's a massive deal and will require military-like organisation to pull off but I'm looking forward to it.

It's at my house but I have a co-host. The partner of the co-host will not eat anything on the menu. There are four options for starter, five for main course, four for pudding. My co-host tells me he eat won't eat any of them.

He's not vegetarian or allergic, he just doesn't like vegetables or anything 'complicated'. I've been asked to serve a plain chicken breast. The menu includes a roast chicken salad (offensive because of watercress) and a plain couscous.

I think it's rude. AIBU?

Limitedperiodonly, some of the "rules" aren't really learnable - because they're not really rules IYSWIM? So there are some things which those who have ASD can and do learn (and this will differ from person to person) whereas there are others which are so vague and situationally dependent that we struggle. Nuances and grey areas are a disaster. It's also quite common for people with ASD to "overcorrect" in response to feedback. So, for example, I might get feedback that I interrupt people too much (because many people with ASD struggle to read conversation and know when it is appropriate to speak). In response to that, I'll be spending so much time trying to work out when is the appropriate and polite time to speak in a meeting that I end up not speaking at all. Then I get feedback that I'm not contributing to meetings enough. But, how do I know when to speak? There's no definite rule - the theory of "only when the other person's finished" doesn't seem to work in real life, people butt in and cut across each other and conversation meanders and ebbs and flows. NT people seem (generalising!) to be able to intuit what's appropriate in each environment. I can't.

There are other things I can learn - so I explained to LashesandLipstick upthread about why asking might not be appropriate and why an NT person wouldn't necessarily say "no" even if they thought "no chance". That's something I have learned rather than something which I intuitively get. I can often analyse situations and work out what might be the polite or appropriate thing, or when someone meant something other than what they said. But I can't do it in real time. It's an intellectual analysis rather than something ingrained and it doesn't keep up with life, sadly!

I can't speak for lashes, but re "Some don't want to, some (like me) get a bit annoyed with people who are NT expecting us to change ourselves every bloody time."

Trying to fit in when you have ASD is like putting on a constant performance. It's like you are acting all the time, and it's completely exhausting to try and maintain the act. I can go to a party and seem ok, seem happy/chatty/bubbly. Then I go home and crash, sometimes for a day or two. I can't pretend every minute of every day.

statisticallychallenged That's interesting and helpful.

I don't believe I have ASD but I recognise both of the difficulties you mention - conversation and being direct as opposed to beating around the bush.

My parents taught me that just because I was a working class girl that didn't mean my opinion was any less valid. Therefore I stuck my hand up in class and freely gave and continue to give my opinion.

I interrupt people all the time and have little patience with people who get offended by that and expect me to wait their turn. If people talk over me I talk over them. Sometimes I win. Sometimes I lose.

I truly don't think those are ASD traits. I think they are traits of assertiveness.

DH cannot 'butt in and cut across people as the conversation meanders'. I find this weird and frustrating. He explains it to me and how it makes him feel excluded - like someone trying to jump into a swimming pool but holding back. I try to take account of it but I also strongly suspect that at times it is a little manipulative.

If the constant cutting across just happened in my family I'd be more willing to take his point on board and consider that possibly we were all ASD. But in happens in several places where I've worked, so it's not just my family.

Re: beating around the bush. There have been times where I've wanted to kill DH. His mother taught him it was rude to ask a direct question so he always prefaces questions with: 'Can I ask you something?' or 'A question for you?' which makes him sound like a Robert Robinson on Ask The Family.

I swear that if the house was burning down and zombies were at the door he'd say: 'Limited, can I just bring something to your attention?'

limited I'm lolling because when saying that some people with AS could go along with the rules, even if they don't understand them, is just completely in contradiction with what AS is. (Wasn't laughing at you btw, just at the idea!)

Of course sometimes people with AS will chose not to follow the rules. But most of the time, they will do it because they didn't get they were supposed to do X.
As statistically explains, the 'rules' are so minute, relying on people body language and facial expression, that a lot of the time, people with AS just don't get it.
And then they also need to generalise situations which is another hurdle.

That's why I'm saying that, if you wanted to, trying to put a book together of how you are supposed to behave and then following it to the letter, isn't possible.

And YY to crashing out at the end of the day. (or having meltdowns etc)

"How would letting this man bring his own food ruin everyone's day?!"

Lashes, that's the whole crux of the matter. He hasn't offered to.

If he had responded as you have said you would (is it possible or if not can I bring my own) I don't think the OP would have any issue with him.

But it appears that neither he nor his partner (who is co-hosting the party ffs!) has offered to provide his own plain food, they have only asked OP if she will do it.

That's what's rude about it.

I think the difference is that from what you've said you basically choose to interrupt - as a trait of assertiveness possibly but you know you are doing it. Someone with ASD often won't even know. Inability to cope with social conversation absolutely is an ASD trait - having it doesn't mean you have ASD in isolation of course, but it is a trait. It's one I discussed quite a lot with the very experienced specialist who diagnosed me.

Re your workplace, I can't explain it either but there is a difference somehow. It's like there's time when interrupting is somehow not rude, and times when it is - but I can't tell the difference. Literally no idea.

The difference between assertiviness and ASD is that when you are assertive, you know you are cutting someone off but decide it's a OK thing to do and that if people are upset then so be it.
With AS, the people will cut someone off wo realising it, will then upset the person by insisting even more and then will end up bewildered when that person is getting angry/upset as they didn't see it coming/can't comprehend what has happened.

xpost statistic
I think we are basically saying the same thing...

Limit statistically explained it better than me imo

Maman I get you. I think

I've been following the How To Be French thread that you're on.

Another poster cleared up something that I've been murderously brooding on for about 20 years.

DH and I (English) went to a dinner party hosted by a Hong Kong woman of Chinese ethnicity, four French people who she worked with in a wine importing business and a Spanish woman. So not people who are backwards in coming forwards.

The other guest was an English woman who was completely fucking dotty. I disown her as part of my tribe.

Everything was nice and people were admiring the food and the wine (of course) and the hostess's lovely flat. And then suddenly DH and I were interrogated for a view so innocuous that I can't even remember what it was.

The only thing that stopped me physically attacking them was when the dotty English woman said that she was very short sighted but had recently been cured. She was asked how - we all thought laser surgery - and she said no, she had just simply decided to throw away her contact lenses and embrace bumping into things.

The Spanish woman said: 'That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.'

At that point, we left with me muttering revenge.

It wasn't until today that I realised that these people just thought they were having a discussion.

I have a similar story involving a Paris-based Swiss, Princess Diana and my part in her downfall as an English journalist.

Definitely singing from the same hymnsheet Maman!

The difference between assertiveness and ASD is that when you are assertive, you know you are cutting someone off but decide it's a OK thing to do and that if people are upset then so be it.

I don't agree Maman. People say things and someone else responds and sometimes the conversation goes in a different direction to the way the initiator might have intended.

Sometimes the initiator is happy with that, and sometimes not. It's like OPs on threads becoming unhappy with the turn their thread has taken. A bit like this one, which has meandered.

To me, this is the normal flow of conversation. It's not necessarily a trait of ASD.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having ASD.

I have a problem with medicalising what I think are normal attributes and being unable to call people out on rudeness.

Whether that's mine or the person who is trying to rain on the OP's parade.

Not that I'm saying this OP is unhappy with the meandering.

It's just that some people are.

Someone with ASD will have a number of traits across several areas - they won't be "medicalised" just because they interrupt a lot. But combined with the other issues it is not medicalising normal attributes. Someone who chooses to interrupt people because they're assertive and want their opinion to be heard regardless could well be rude. Someone with ASD who is struggling socially and trying to input their views in a team meeting might still be perceived as rude - but there is a difference of intention. The casual listener may well not be able to tell the difference which is why diagnosis is so damned important. It's made a huge difference to me, as my manager now understands why I do certain things and so has stopped projecting neuro-typical motivators on to my behaviours to try and interpret why I might behave in a certain way.

She's still able to give me feedback and suggest things I might do differently, but the tone and content of that is very different now that she and I know my diagnosis. Before I'd get feedback like "you don't seem engaged, it's like you don't want to be here" because I wasn't being pro-active enough or volunteering for things. Whereas in reality it's because I was struggling to know how to approach people to ask for more work and couldn't interpret when people needed help so was lost. Whereas now if she notices that it will be more like "is so and so giving you enough work, are they being clear about what's expected."

But how do you tell?

I don't choose to interrupt people. I just do it.

Other times I say nothing in meetings, as you have described.

I do not think I have ASD. It is my normal reaction at any given time.

When I talked about being 'medicalised' I meant that I would resent people thinking that my responses were anything out of the ordinary.

In isolation you can't tell - which is why diagnosis is important because it means the people you work/live/socialise with can understand the difference.

Okay. Take me and DH.

I am an interrupter and he is someone who raises a metaphorical hand before contributing to a conversation.

It is frustrating for both of us.

Do either of us need to be diagnosed?

You cannot judge a need for diagnosis based on a single trait - as I have said. You will not get a diagnosis of ASD because you interrupt. Historically there has been what was known as the "triad of impairments" which required symptoms around social and emotional difficulties, language and communication and flexibility of thought. The American diagnostic criteria have changed a bit and now only list two broad categories but cover the same thing.

Quint I don't think it's a slight on the cooking - I dislike most food, nothing to do with the person!

Lashes - are you the the dp of OPs co-host?

Because, I am not talking about you and your food issues in particular, so please dont take it personally. (unless you are the person OP is referring to)

Assuming that they are your only problematic traits, then no.

Not entirely sure of the 'new' criteria- but under the old diagnostic criteria you needed to have significant impairment in 3 areas: communication, social interaction and social imagination. Interrupting constantly or never interrupting at all to the point where you never speak could be considered one part of one area.

I have a diagnosis of AS and I wish it was as simple as interrupting! Yes that's a trait I have, along with inability to maintain eye contact, problems with auditory processing, problems with speech including difficulty modulating volume, pitch and tone and needing extra processing time to respond to open ended questions, inability to generalise from a specific example, I have very black and white thinking and struggle with the idea of shades of grey, never mind identifying them, I have intense interests/obsessions that can take over my life and I feel compelled to tell others about them (and miss the signs that they are not interested!) and that's not to mention the things that aren't included in the (old) diagnostic criteria but are common to most people on the spectrum- clumsiness, sensory issues, anxiety...

Oh, and I can go along with rules, even if I don't understand them.

But first, I need to know that the rule exists. I need to know what the rule is. I need to know when to apply it. I need to know how to tell when to apply it, and when not to.

Take interrupting as an example. First I need to be aware that my interrupting is a problem. Then I need to either consciously learn through observing and trial and error, or be told that 'when someone is speaking you wait for them to finish'. Now, how do I know when they have finished? When they've finished their sentence? But they might have something else to say after. When they pause for breath? Ditto. Maybe there's some sort of eye signal, facial expression, or gesture that indicates it's the next person's turn to speak. If that's the case, I'm screwed because I can't read any of that. So I'll go for waiting for them to pause for breath, at least that way my words won't overlap theirs. Except by the time I recognise that they have paused for breath and managed to actually speak (remember I need a slightly longer processing time), someone else comes and jumps in the gap and now I've interrupted them. So how should I have recognised that they wanted to speak? We're back to non verbal communication again. Maybe I'll do better with a one-to-one conversation? At least now I won't speak over someone. Except I know what I want to say, and prepare it, and by the time I spot a gap the person has moved on and what I say doesn't follow at all!

So I'm afraid I can't 'just' go along with the rules.

Add but if nothing in the theme fits him? Why does that offend you?

Because that is lazy and rude. He could offer to do a meal in theme that suits him and we could all joy it alongside each other. It would show willing - you seem very keen on the host doing that. Why not the other way around?

Don't come to a themed dinner if you want neither the dinner nor the theme.

If nothing in the theme fits him, you'd have to wonder why he's taking such pains to be involved? Would it suit the PC brigade if he showed up with a McDonald's takeaway and sat there scoffing it out of the brown bag?

I personally can think of no good reason to be so desperate to take part in something you have zero interest in.

Take interrupting as an example...So how should I have recognised that they wanted to speak?

I've shortened your explanation ChronicallyAspie which could be seen as rude. But I hope you understand that I just mean to shorten it to a line and a half and anyone else can refer back to your post because I have named you.

What you have described sounds to me like a normal meeting.

Definitely in terms of business but also in social interactions.

I described that to Maman, who I believe is French, in relation to an amusing thread running at the moment about the things that French people do that she contributed to.

One of them is having 'discussions'. Today I learned that challenging people very robustly and expecting them to defend their positions and 'win' is the French way.

That cleared a 20-year feud up for me. Far too late though. I was mortally offended because I didn't get the nuances.

That wasn't Maman's post btw. Perhaps she would disagree with that person's view of French culture.

What I really mean is that you don't have to have a diagnosis of some form of condition to miss social pointers.

And missing social pointers doesn't necessarily mean that you have a condition that needs to be diagnosed.

A diagnosis may be helpful to you. It may not be helpful to someone else.

Add I'll reply to this in length later but you just seem really annoyed he won't eat your food and so determined to force him to conform to your norms, or else exclude him. Nasty behaviour