Disowning my older children

[gingerose123]

I would love some feedback. First off I was married for 11 years to a man who was more concerned with his family than with me. I didn't realize how bad until our first year of marriage. We had 2 children 6 years apart. We finally divorced after years of me tolerating he and his family's bullying and abuse of me. He and his family worked pretty hard at alienating my kids from me. Although we had shared custody I never worried too much about it because i was always a good loving mom and figured as adults they would figure out the truth and that would be that. I did not participate by bad-mouthing the ex and his family figuring that would play in my favor later on. Now my kids are 20 and 15. The 20 year old lives with the family who hates me so much. She knows the truth about it all now, but it hasn't changed her mind about her relationship with them. Then my son who is 15 prefers to live with my ex husband. They have a larger family than me (I am alone-no siblings or close family) and my daughter told me she would rather be there because there are more people to do things with. I am so incredibly hurt and in pain as they prefer to be with the other family I am considering disowning them. I just can't take this pain any longer. Am I being unreasonable? Too sensitive?

This thread!

Yes, you are being completely unreasonable and over sensitive in disowning your kids (one of whom is only 15. Fifteen!!!!) because they won't take sides against their own Dad.

And describing your own 5 year old as a jerk for not coping very well with your divorce is kind of messed up. You should definitely talk to your therapist about that.

I am really sorry for you op. My eldest dd treated me appallingly and it has been very hard to get beyond that. We have a good relationship now, but I do feel I hold her a little at arms length. I no longer let her bully me into doing things I feel are wrong or I don't want to do anymore because it takes me back to when she was at her worst and makes me feel very bad. Her two children live with me through order of the court. They love her and I would never do anything to come between them.

Everything appears very raw just now and I am going to advise you to step back at bit. Stop being quite so available and begin to rebuild your own life, one step at a time. Try to do something that you would enjoy each day.

It must be very hard with your 15 yo but he is being pressurised and must be confused. I would let him go but tell him you are there for him. However, you cannot let him go back and forth putting strain on you like this. You have to explain he cannot keep on changing his mind as it is also very unsettling for him which cannot be good given the circumstances you have described.

You need to start considering yourself. Even though you say they are good kids, children can be very selfish.

"I have always supported my children's relationship with their other family believing that when they were adults and figured it out they would decide for themselves."

What you mean here is that you figured they'd pick you. It is possible that they look at what they know about the situation and don't think their dad or their dad's family are in the wrong. They are entitled to that opinion and, to be honest, the fact that you're considering disowning them because they don't agree with you backs up their view of things.

I think you've actually had really gentle treatment on here considering.. I can only imagine what reaction a dad who was considering ending his relationship with his teenagers because they chose to live with their mum would get.

Elsie, I don't think I've seen any evidence of the OP doing anything but consider herself

Gingerose123 what would make you feel your children weren't trying to hurt you? Is it 'deal or no deal' regarding their living arrangements? Do you feel that continuing a relationship with their father is in itself a rejection of you?

Relationships are complicated and we all have to give up a bit of ourselves to maintain them, whether that is by compromising on what we have for dinner or by giving up our time to do something that doesn't particularly interest us, etc. Perhaps your children feel that you're punishing them for choosing to love their father?

The other thing is that a man (or woman) can be a fantastic parent and a terrible partner. They're not intrinsically tied. Likewise, they can be a wonderful partner to one person and terrible for another. Perhaps you just weren't compatible.

Do you think that perhaps you can't forgive yourself for the failure of your marriage and that you need your children to validate the breakdown of your marriage by rejecting your exH? You don't need them to agree with you that it was a bad relationship for you.

Stratter - I'm not here to judge the op, no "evidence" here, just offer advice from someone who has been in a not dissimilar situation with the focus on her son.

Your posts quite clearly demonstrate that you have no patience for anyone disagreeing with you, or not seeing you as the hapless victim. Even the tone and language used is very different from post to post.

I would suggest trying to think of things from the perspective of others and not purely yourself...and actually consider what is best for the children involved. 15 is very young to be played like this, he needs you to be a grown up.

You do come across as manipulative and self absorbed op. This action of attacking posters who are not saying what you want to hear is very manipulative.

My mum is very similar, my childhood was characterised by guilt trips of "after all I've done for you" whenever I committed any misdemeanor.

I still have a relationship with my mum but I left home at 19, moved 120 miles away and stayed away. I very much keep my mum at arms length because I can't bear the manipulation and over emotional responses.

You need to start considering yourself. Even though you say they are good kids, children can be very selfish.

I take issue with that; all I've read, and I've read every post, points to two children behaving perfectly normally after a divorce, and one mother point scoring, only thinking of herself, and manipulating.

Possibly, both of us are projecting, but I've lived with parents like that, and they are hell. Imagine an entire childhood treading on eggshells, and trying and failing to please.

Op, I really felt like we getting somewhere interesting and good with the insightful posts that were coming about the pain of being afraid to love children deeply. Then people with their own issues, frankly, piled in in a spiteful and really unpleasant way, making you feel attacked (which you were) and defensive. So unhelpful. I completely agree that if people can't post sensibly then they certainly shouldn't post unkindly. I see it all across the boards now, especially aibu and relationships. Arse holes sticking the boot in, in a pack mentality way.

Clearly, you need more therapeutic support and you know that. Wishing you the best of luck with resolving these painful issues

DH and his sister were disowned by his dad, by letter. DH immediately wrote to back and told him not to be silly etc etc, whereupon his dad retracted and apologised. This is something like 30 years ago, and the rift has never actually healed. DH has a lot of issues as a result, as does his sister. DD and I also suffer indirectly in one way or another from that moment of self-indulgent, thoughtless madness from dh's dad.

It is something that ought to be unthinkable.

I think some of these posts are very harsh. The Op says the ex and his family badmouthed her and alienated her children from her. Using a child as a weapon and saying bad things to a child about the other parent is abusive and severely affects the child parent relationship. In other countries it's known as parental alienation syndrome although some experts say it doesn't exist. It's a tactic employed by the disordered, narcissists in particular. This was done to me as a child about my parent and it was horrific. It was also horrific for the target parent.

I've seen people post about this on here before and they always get a hard time and they always get blamed. Yet what we know is that an abusive man will abuse the child parent relationship to punish the other parent. Lundy Bancroft writes at length about this in his book why does he do that.

Who wouldn't be gutted that their son has returned to his abusive father ? People can only take so much . I don't think the Op is really going to disown them , but I think it is a sign that she's lost all hope.

Balacqua quite right, there were some very helpful comments from all and gingerose123 was exploring lots of interesting thoughts on her thread and then lots of frankly really shitty comments coming along to stick the boot in.

gingerose123, I am so sorry you are in this situation.

I've read most of the comments, maybe not every single one.

Pleas do not disown your kids, it will be very cruel and hurtful for them, it sounds like your son, especially, has been very manipulated by his dad and needs to know you and care for him.

You sound like you have been through a very hard time and I can understand your wanting to cut yourself off from your older kids to stop the pain. But please do not.

If your therapist is not helping you, please find another.

Please find a way to extend your love to your older children in the best way you can and keep the doors open and the lines of communication open.

Please also do explore how they may feel about our re-marriage and younger children, there can be so much jealousy in families and your older children may in some way feel they have been replaced.

Your ex sounds like a pig. Try and deal with those feelings without involving your children. It is a shame that they can't see or appreciate what you have been through, but they are kids, and kids are generally pretty selfish. And it is true they did not ask to be born and he situation of the abusive extended family and your relationship with their dad, is not of their making.

BertieBotts excellent advice. And I agree with DoJo when they say... Perhaps accepting that you cannot change the past or the current relationships with the other half of their family and focussing on what you can change might make you feel more positive about the future.

I think Jux makes a really good point, that sometimes things can have huge ramification, and I feel sure this is not what you really want. But you are in pain and you just want the pain to stop. Please, please find a way to deal with the pain without involving your kids.

I also think your point I just don't understand why I have conditional love for my kids. Why I am so ready to cut them out of my life when I feel they are rejecting me. This is a mystery to me. is very telling. As someone else said, as women we tend to think must just give and give, that is the job of a mum. But actually we do not always do that all the time, we have limits and certainly as our kids grow we sometimes say we cannot do this or that.

I think that the idea of unconditional love is very interesting. I actually think unconditional love is very hard to achieve all the time! I don't think we all feel that automatically! I think some people maybe do, some people never do, and some of us, maybe quite a few of us, love our children conditionally, until the shit really hits the fan, then we just have to fall back on love! But love is not just an emotion, it is an act of the will. It is doing the right thing, or not doing the wrong thing, it is working through hard situations, it is a whole bunch of things. I do not think it is just feeling 'love'. Some kids are more testing than others, some marriages are most testing. No one has walked in your shoes. I do think we expect loyalty when we show loyalty.

But I would just say as you have already worked out it is best to continue to work out how you can move forward. Express love, show love, develop patience (hands up I am the least patient person!), calm your concerns, find the right way to move on. Please do not beat yourself up for not always loving your kids unconditionally. Love is a wildly over used word! You have no idea how others really feel or what they have experienced. I say would give up my life for my kids, as I am sure we would mostly say we would, but they bloody annoy me at times and at times I don't 'feel' loving. But loving is not feeling, it is moving forward relentlessly dealing with things that happen.

I also feel if you can somehow find it in your heart to forgive your ex, and his family, you do not need to tell him, just find it in your heart to forgive him and his family. If you cannot that is fine. They have abused and let you down, so no pressure, but if you can, I think it will help you.

theforgivenessproject.com/

I think (IMHO) anyone who is not to some degree 'rejection-sensitive' possibly does not understand what rejection is, or does not care!

Bless you.

DorisDazzler cross posted. Great post. Very intelligent.

The horrible truth is that this is a common outcome for people who have been in an abusive relationship with a toxic person. It works for the abuser as many people don't understand it and will blame the targeted parent. It's well recognised by domestic abuse organizations. Women's aid can help you with this and you might find this useful www.warshak.com/resources/support-groups.html

I think some of these posts are very harsh. The Op says the ex and his family badmouthed her and alienated her children from her

Just because she says that doesn't mean its the way it actually happened. Since she wants to disown them for not picking her side and rejecting the rest of their family, perhaps it was her that alienated them?
Or not. But you don't know and can't assume its all someone elses fault.

It's possible Winter but it's not the impression I get. Not many abusers voluntarily take themselves off to therapy as they are ALWAYS right. And despite the common belief that children will distance themselves from an abusive parent , they will often display loyalty to an abusive parent. It isn't loyalty. It's what's known as FOG , fear , obligation and guilt. The fact that ex h guilt tripped son into returning to his house stinks of manipulation.

I also haven't seen Op state she wants them to take sides.

I also haven't seen Op state she wants them to take sides.

Then read the OP. That is what its about!
She "figured as adults they would figure out the truth and that would be that. I did not participate by bad-mouthing the ex and his family figuring that would play in my favor later on."
and
"She knows the truth about it all now, but it hasn't changed her mind about her relationship with them. Then my son who is 15 prefers to live with my ex husband"
and
"I am so incredibly hurt and in pain as they prefer to be with the other family I am considering disowning them."

How can you miss that?

Winter of course we only have one person's side but as mumsnet is a place for support and it is the OP, and not her ex husband or his family, who came on here looking for support it seems logical to give support to the person who is asking it. Of course the OP may well see things from her side. If she says her ex husband and his family have been abusive to her and we believe her then we will be on her side, but that may involve pointing out areas where she can make things better or where she is expecting too much from her children by response. The fact we don't know the other person's side is pretty irrelevant (IMHO) in about 99% of these threads because it is always one person talking!

We can only go on what the OP says for herself. And many people read the OP as being not as innocent in the making of the situation as she says.
Its nothing to do with not knowing the other persons side at all, you use what is there. We don't need the other side to comment.

Of course Winter you are entitled to your opinion. If the intention is to be supportive and people want to comment that they think the OP has misread some things in her own life, that can be helpful too.

Being supportive doesn't mean we have to agree with the person all the time.

I'm not sure what you think about picking sides. The OP has not said she doesn't want her kids to see or know their dad. She has described what she has experienced at the hands of her ex husband and his family and she is surprised her kids don't see it.

I know someone who loved her dad dearly but knew he beat her mum. I found that very sad, and strange, to me, knowing that someone I loved hurt someone else I loved would make me feel very conflicted indeed. But because I did not grow up in that situation I can see it quite clearly. Someone who grows up in that situation, may not.

In the case of people I know I don't see how it is wrong to hope that your children will see people for who they really are, or will see them as bad influences on the children. I have several friends whose ex husbands are all (described to me by them) as a bit of a shit, but, certainly in my very good friend's case, she never stopped her ex seeing his son. Still I am pretty sure she hopes one day her son will see the reality of the situation. But again, I only have my friend's side to go on. I am not sure if you are saying you do not believe her you think just wanting the truth to come out is wrong? As I say you may not believe someone, but if they are telling the truth and they want that to come out and the kids to know that their dad or the extended family were hurtful or abusive, how is that wrong?