Fasting and ability to work

[ChipsOnChips]

Yesterday DC was booked to have an operation - not massively complex but not minor either. The surgery was scheduled for late afternoon and would have taken some time.

Prior to the surgery the dr visited us and it became apparant they were fasting. I felt very uncomfortable about the op going ahead and very conflicted that I felt uncomfortable.

Was I being unreasonable to be concerned?

Yes Chips but you have also been told that there are thousands of surgeons in Muslims countries who fast. And that fasting does not equate to physical
Impairment. And that you can't suggest his fasting would impair his judgement any more than any other 'normal' issue such as a busy surgeon not having time to eat and drink.

Some people have said it can cause impairment and she does have the right to question it

But she didn't. She decided to start a thread here instead. If I was seriously worried about a surgeons ability to operate on my child I wouldn't be worried about being PC and just say something. Which she didn't do

OP ask for another surgeon, one who isn't Muslim. Presumably there are non Muslim surgeons who can carry out the procedure.

Fasting ie not eating at all will impair judgement.

But Muslims observing Ramadan can have a big breakfast before sunrise and a big dinner after sunset. It's not as if they're not eating -- many people have a big breakfast and don't eat again until dinner time all the time. That doesn't impair judgement

It's a longtime to go without fluids

pyjamas if we're referring to fasting for 10+ hours then the response seems to be pretty evenly split between it impairs you v it doesn't. Talk of even one person fainting in a theatre is not reassuring to me.

Lots of people have compared fasting to not having lunch but my experience is that it is very different. I know from my personal experience that not having lunch doesn't bother me too much. But not having fluids for 10hrs would be an issue.

I'm not arguing that it's not perfectly possible to be impaired by other factors but in this instance I was concerned there was a potential to be impaired by not having eaten/drunk for many many hours.

I would think that even very busy surgeons would have time for a few glasses of water, a cup of tea or a quick snack at some point during the day. I wouldn't be too concerned about this if / when Ramadan is in winter so the days are shorter, but if say a surgeon had her last drink at 5 am and I am to have an emergency surgery at 6 pm, that's 13 hours without a drink or any food. I think that the likelihood that this is affecting a surgeon's performance is very high.

People do not normally go 17 hours without a sip of water in June talismania.

"And you better believe that if a fasting Muslim hurt/harmed/affected anyone detrimentally as a doctor/motorist/dentist/teacher/etc etc the Daily Mail/UKIP/BNP/EDL would be the first to report it"

I had orthopaedic surgery a few years ago and a nerve was accidentally damaged in the process. The surgeon hit the nerve when removing a piece of bone. As a result, I permanently lost some sensation in part of my foot. I have no idea whether it was a.) one of those things or b.) because the surgeon was hungover/thinking about the footie/tired/hadn't eaten all day/was fasting for health reasons. So, while I do agree with your overall sentiments on this thread, I disagree that we would ever know.

Also, teacup claims upthread that doctors and surgeons cover their backs. If that's true, it would rather suggest that in fact we wouldn't hear all about it.

My dh us fasting and he had to leave work early on Friday with a severe headache.
The fast is 19 hours long ATM which is a very long time without water. Yesterday he almost slept half the day because he felt so awful and he has been fasting since puberty. So personally I would prefer a non fasting surgeon.

Hi all,

Saw my friend who is muslim this afternoon and had a good old chat with her about all the ideas brought up in this thread.
She agrees that if you don't feel comfortable with the surgeon fasting then of course you should ask for the operation to be postponed, but she also said as Teacup or Pyjama (I think) that he should and surely would self-regulate and know if he might be a danger. She also said that it would be a good idea to take days out if doing difficult procedures and to 'make them up' at a later date as this isn't frowned on at all.

We also have a lively debate about the wisdom of her 10YO DS beginning to fast for Ramadan. I voiced my concerns about his performance at school, and also the fact that he has a walk when he gets off the school bus to get home, and the temp today was nearing the 30s. She listened, but said that as the DS is very proud about joining in with the fast that these are not concerns for her. He knows what to do if he is feeling unwell. It still freaks me out as an idea, as I pointed out to her that she deliberately herself 'winds down' activities during Ramadan, and it may be hard for him to realise when he should be taking school things slow and steady, but she is confident that all will be well. We ended up agreeing to disagree, because i think that having a child this age fasting is not a particularly healthy thing, but as she is a fab mum I know that she would have taken all of this into consideration.

I also talked to her about whether she is offended by people questioning things like this, or even if they are a bit hostile to these practices. She said she is all for debate, and wishes that people would, say, come up to her and ask why she is dressed all in black and wearing a hijab (she is in mourning ever since her brother was killed in Iraq a couple of years ago - she says she feels closer to God and to him by wearing black) rather than people staring at her looking suspicious and angry. As I've said, I live in an area now with few muslims (or at least few that she has as friends because the Muslims here tend to come from a different country and she doesn't speak the language they do) and I know it is hard for her because of this.
[sorry, don't know why I put the last part in, I was running away with myself!]

Welcome to the world of mn. Where we have a while board dedicated to 5 2 fasting diet, the vendors of fasting and liquid only diets etc etc. Fasting is only dangerous of those non integrating, beacons of victim hood the muzzlims do it.

Ffs, most Muslims are exempt and those that do it should be able up self regulate. To throw stealth accusations around about the surgeon not being entirely to fit yo postage because he is fasting and then accuse Muslims in the thread who tried to clarify the matter of being victims and playing race card. ... Only on mn....

I have many Muslim friends who work ft and fast. I'm amazed and inspired by their sense of faith, motivation, self control and will power.

There are plenty of scientific studies that show mental function is severely affected by dehydration. Never seen one that says this effect is ameliorated by religion. It's not safe to operated without drinking for hours and hours so I hope your ds' operation was in the morning.

Op,

Did the fasting muslim surgeon look after your son and perform the surgery successfully? Does that tell you anything about his ability to self-regulate?

"I think a responsible surgeon would be able to judge if he was fit for work an obviously intelligent muslim who has been fasting for most of his life would not put his patients life in danger, "

Actually, human beings are pretty bad at assessing their own fitness to perform complex tasks. That's why, with the drink-driving thing, it took YEARS of slamming people with the data before people starting to take seriously the idea that moderate drinking impaired their driving skills. Remember when everyone used to insist that they drove just as well or better after a few drinks?

Hmmmm:

"Ramadan 2015 Fasting UK Hours Should Be Shortened Argues Muslim Academic Usama Hasan"
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/06/15/ramadan-hours-shortened-u_n_7584596.html

Baking I have never seen any dietry advice on MN or anywhere, that precludes fluid, have you?

In fact the advice, while restricting foods, is to drink more.

That is the obvious difference.

In fact when I had to go nil by mouth for medical tests, the written advice from the hospital told me I would in all liklihood feel ill and to avoid driving and opperating machinery.

yesterday he almost slept half the day because he felt so awful and he has been fasting since puberty. So personally I would prefer a non fasting surgeon

You would like a non fasting surgeon because your DH couldn't hack it and had to take to his bed. Your whole opinion is based on your DH

There are millions of Muslims who taking to bed is not an option, we just get on with our work and responsibilities without it affecting anybody

There are a couple of rather large problems with your 5:2 point baking.

The first is that MN is not some kind of hive mind bound by communal responsibility. So we have a feminism board even though many posters don't identify as such. We have a dogs board though some posters are allergic to them. We have a teens board though some of us only have tinies. And we have a number of diet boards where people are following programmes that might actively contradict each other. If you could find specific examples of posters on this thread endorsing 5:2, that would at least be something. Although there'd still be problem two, which is the fact that 5:2 does not restrict fluids. Any comparison you make needs to be to something that involves going without water for 17 hours a day in the summer, or it is pointless.

www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v57/n2s/full/1601899a.html#close

Effects on health of fluid restriction during fasting in Ramadan

No detrimental effects on health have as yet been directly attributed to negative water balance at the levels that may be produced during Ramadan.

that article is chock full of negative effects on health from fasting!

No water is not good. Less food is something just about all of us need in the UK as 60% are fat and eat on almost a continuous basis. NHS hospitals and their staff seem to have some of the largest people in the land.