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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Fasting and ability to work

224 replies

ChipsOnChips · 20/06/2015 07:09

Yesterday DC was booked to have an operation - not massively complex but not minor either. The surgery was scheduled for late afternoon and would have taken some time.

Prior to the surgery the dr visited us and it became apparant they were fasting. I felt very uncomfortable about the op going ahead and very conflicted that I felt uncomfortable.

Was I being unreasonable to be concerned?

OP posts:
Crocodopolis · 20/06/2015 09:51

Fasting impairs your abilty to work. That's a fact

Izzat so? And what is the source of this little factoid?

Mrsjayy · 20/06/2015 09:53

I dont think heart surgeons who do major lengthy operations stop for a drink

GeraldineFangedVagine · 20/06/2015 09:56

I work in theatres, we regularly unintentionally fast for whole shifts due to length of cases or emergencies, if a surgeon or indeed anyone in the team was impaired in any way, they would be asked to take a break. Surgeries are a team effort and the whole team places patient safety first in my experience.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo · 20/06/2015 10:04

This person is operating on you child. Of course it's not unreasonable to be concerned he might be below optimum performance. How to raise your concern without it being dismissed as anti-Muslim I'm not sure.

Mrsjayy · 20/06/2015 10:06

What Geraldine said

anon33 · 20/06/2015 10:23

Where do you draw the line at concerns though? Should you ask if your surgeon has slept well/is on medication/has family ishoos/is a drug addict/when his last meal was?

Whilst i don't think YABU to think it is a concern OP, I do think the surgical team are equipped to risk assess a surgeon's capability to perform on the day. As you said it was not major surgery, so the risk to him from a fasting surgeon is probably fairly minimal.

Hope your son recovered well.

OwlsEscapade · 20/06/2015 10:58

I agree that it's not the same as missing a meal or working a long shift without eating. I think most people can do that. My DH usually doesn't eat anything between 7 in the morning and 8 at night but he does drink. I would really struggle if I couldn't drink anything for such a long time. I'm in the habit of drinking regularly so to stop would feel very odd.

I eat a small breakfast such as a banana so I feel hungry at lunch time. I think I'm a bit of a lightweight .

I'm sure that the surgeons are capable of being very focused on their work though. I don't think you get to be a surgeon if you are easily distracted.

Hi5Hello · 20/06/2015 11:03

Many Muslim doctors I know fast on consultation days have small light meals on Op days with the permission of their Iman's. We often have parcels of food and drink which have been blessed delivered to the wards so that the Doctors can eat

ilovesooty · 20/06/2015 11:05

I'm sure a professional wouldn't consider operating if he was knowingly impaired.
So why couldn't you use your normal user name to post?

MeButSmaller · 20/06/2015 11:14

OK, fasting is obvious unfamiliar to you.

Religious fasting, from what I can tell, affects different people in different ways. It is not really comparable with 5:2 sort of fasting, where you are allowed water. When we have been living in Muslim countries during Ramadan, it is apparent that less gets done. The first few days (ie now) and the last few days can be hard. This is because of late nights and early starts thought, in addition to the fasting itself. A professional working in non-Muslim environment will be able to be sensible about many of these things, and mitigate the impact.

If you personally have concerns, I do not think that it would have be pen unreasonable to have politely asked the surgeon how he finds fasting and working. He would probably have been able to allay any worries you had. As an educated professional, I am sure that he has made the decision that he is capable of carrying out his job during Ramadan. But honestly, I doubt he'd have minded having a chat about it. I once had a similar conversation with my dentist when getting some root canal work done (or rather just before the root canal work!) - I was making conversation rather than genuinely concerned - and he said that he just got in a work zone and felt ok, but had really struggled to carry out his job effectively when his baby had been in the newborn sleepless phase.

BlisterFace · 20/06/2015 11:20

YANBU at all to be concerned. In all the Muslim countries I know (which is a lot as my DH is from the Middle East and I currently live there) shorter working hours are mandatory during Ramadan for the very reason that people get weak and exhausted. (I saw a woman faint at the mall less than an hour ago - out cold from (presumably) dehydration.)

I certainly hope that the people responsible for assessing competence in fasting surgeons are a bit more courageous about confronting that risk (even if it is specific to Muslims) than some folks on this thread!

DH is a Muslim but does not fast as it impairs his ability to deal with patients (medic but not a surgeon) well that's his excuse anyway Grin

TittyBiskwits · 20/06/2015 11:20

I remember an episode of Traffic Cops where a police officer was observing Ramadan. He had to stop chasing a car thief on foot as he was too weak from fasting and needed to throw up.

What people do in their spare time is their business, but if it affects your ability to do your job properly, that's another matter.

Original poster
ChipsOnChips · 20/06/2015 11:30

I've actually been in Muslim countries during Ramadan and the atmosphere in a meeting room after 7 hours where the majority of individuals have had no water, food or cigarettes has been pretty bad - But perhaps my colleagues are just less disciplined.

ilove I didn't post under my usual name as I suspected there would be at least a couple of posters who would accuse me of being a racist redneck and I didn't fancy that following me around the site.

I was genuinely interested in whether I'd been unreasonable to be concerned and it seems the majority think I was so I'll take that on the chin. However it was very hard, having gone to the trouble of seeking out a highly thought of specialist to perform the surgery to then feel like they might have been in someway impaired. In exactly the way I would be if I'd not had water for 12 hours.

For those that asked DC is ok - we will not know whether the surgery is successful for several months. It involved an attempt to repair damaged nerves and we have been told not to expect any immediate change.

OP posts:
whois · 20/06/2015 11:57

I think it's totally R to be concerned.

I think it's stupid and dangerous to put yourself in a position where other people's health/lives are in your hands and you choose to impair yourself by not drinking any water between - what is it, 3.30am and 9.15 at night at the moment?

Anyone who seriously thinks not eating and drinking, and getting less sleep as you get up early to eat does not affect you is misguided.

I think it's terrible girls from about 10 are expected to fast. There is no way they can access the full curriculum (sports) without having a drink of water all day.

HaPPy8 · 20/06/2015 11:59

You let one child have sweets whilst the other was fasting?!. That would not go down well with mine!

But to the point of the thread, my rational head is in agreement with those who say YABU and the surgeon is a professional. But I know I would not be so rational were it my child and would worry about every little thing, if it wasn't the surgeon fasting it would be something else because I would be focusing my worry on something.

Teacup246 · 20/06/2015 12:08

Those who are concerned about surgeons performing surgery while fasting, would you have the same concerns if they had been drinking the night before? I worked in a surgery department and the amount of alcohol abuse amongst the surgeons was shocking. No patient ever asked them about how much they had drank the night before

Postchildrenpregranny · 20/06/2015 12:09

DD2 is amidwife .Some days (14 hour shifts at night) she doesn't have time to have a wee ,never mind eat a proper meal. If she's lucky its a bannana 'on the hoof'
I'm not saying its good and I worry that it impairs her ability to make sound judgements etc but its a fact of life in the understaffed NHS I'm afraid

RumbleMum · 20/06/2015 12:12

YANBU to be concerned - if my child was going in for surgery I'd feel worried if I felt there was any potential for the surgeon's concentration to be impaired, whether he'd mentioned he was fasting, had the newborn child from hell, was just finishing a double shift or whatever.

You'd certainly hope he would make appropriate judgements about his ability to perform surgery but surgeons aren't infallible - I'm working with some surgical teams at the moment and the stories about implements being left inside people or the wrong bits taken out are eye-opening, to say the least.

The OP is clearly not Muslim-bashing, she's simply expressing a concern rationally and obviously feels conflicted about it.

Kennington · 20/06/2015 12:26

I have a friend who is a children's surgeon and fasts for Ramadan. He is fine. It is after work he feels bad but then he can eats again.
Possibly not ideal but he has never had an issue.

TheWordFactory · 20/06/2015 12:28

I don't think doing without food would necessarily be a problem ( although one of my colleagues doing 5:2 is utterly vile and unprofessional on her fast days).

However not a sip of water from 4.30am in a stuffy hospital would surely impair anyone?

Because isn't that the point of fasting. It's meant to be tough.

Viviennemary · 20/06/2015 12:30

YANBU. It also worries me if a pilot might be fasting. Or a driver on the motherway. I think it's an important issue.

Sorehead · 20/06/2015 12:38

teacup- I'd imagine that if the surgeon had said "No thanks, a sweet would be no good for this hangover; I can't believe I'm still feeling this rough- shouldn't have had that last tequila" chips would have posted a thread asking if they were BU for having concerns about the hungover surgeon.

lordsandladies · 20/06/2015 12:40

This is one of the hardest Ramadans in years due to length of days. The lack of fluids in the heat is the main issue.

In muslim countries the entire day kind of changes to match the pace of the festival. Here they are expected to retain the same pace obviously.

Having said that SIL is a GP and she maintains the fast. She has on occasion paid for locums to cover if she felt impaired. You have to hope they are responsible in their approach.

ilovesooty · 20/06/2015 12:46

I don't think for a minute the OP is Muslim bashing which is why I felt saddened she felt she had to name change to explore a concern.
I imagine though that the surgeon would have thought this through and performed his own personal risk assessment to ensure his competence as well as ensuring contingency plans were in place if necessary.

Timetoask · 20/06/2015 12:46

YANBU I would be concerned.