Fasting and ability to work

[ChipsOnChips]

Yesterday DC was booked to have an operation - not massively complex but not minor either. The surgery was scheduled for late afternoon and would have taken some time.

Prior to the surgery the dr visited us and it became apparant they were fasting. I felt very uncomfortable about the op going ahead and very conflicted that I felt uncomfortable.

Was I being unreasonable to be concerned?

I do think fasting of any kind is a poor choice when you are doing surgery.

I speak as someone who has been a surgeon in the past and now does clinics.
I've never understood the 'I don't have time to eat' mentality of health care staff. I've always kept 'in case of emergency' muesli bars or a banana in my pocket (or tucked away at the nurses station) as it is clearly demonstrable that having a low blood sugar can lead to weakness and even fainting (I've seen a few nurses/surgeons/orderlies faint during surgery - it gets very hot under the lights and wearing gowns and gloves). I also don't think the brain works as well without fluids and energy. I would not be happy at all for a friend or relative to be operated on by anyone who is not eating sensibly. This includes having a sandwich mid-way through a long procedure (this was the norm at my hospital).

Yes, it's hard to police, but surgeons/health professionals owe a duty of care first to their patients, and all religious or dieting commitments should come an absolute second. I do feel quite irate with people who say they don't have time to eat/drink. Yes, we are busy people, but how long does it take to shove a banana in your head? As said, i have a huge box of muesli bars from Costco tucked away and just have one of them if I haven't eaten for a few hours.

(BTW - did you know that you should NEVER see a surgeon for surgery before they go on holiday or are moving house? Apparently the surgical outcomes are worse.)

So OP - you have every right to be concerned. I saw above that there are caveats on fasting during Ramadan and think they seem very sensible.

Its amazing how many people have an opinion on fasting but have never done it and have zero experience of it but feel qualified to give opinions

Teacup - I've never fasted during Ramadan, but as many of my friends and colleagues are Muslim (including my housemates at uni) I've seen first hand what happens.

In fairness, not much happens. I used to have to lick the stamps for my friends to put on envelopes, we used to admire my flatmates amazing sudden 'wasp-waist' transformation by the end of the fast. Apart from that, it was business as usual. But I did notice a certain listlessness with one flatmate during the time. They definitely cut down on chores etc. My muslim-mum friend now will ask me to go to her house with the kids, rather than risk walking here in 28 degree heat, just in case she feels faint with the lack of fluid on the walk home. All minor stuff.

I'm not saying fasting is a bad thing. I'm saying that biologically there are reasons why it is not an optimal state for a surgeon, or any person who has a job which has peoples lives in their hands, to be in.

I live in a Muslim country and working hours are reduced here during ramadan because it is difficult to work full days when fasting and it also gives the person time to go home and do the extra prayers and concentrate on the things they are supposed to in the holy month. So I guess it would depend on how long the doc had been at work on a particular day, I would hope that as professionals they would not perform a procedure if they felt too tired or distracted to do so however.

one of my colleagues seriously ballsed up a project in work and said it was due to him fasting, everyone was really nice about it but weve all got to put in extra unpaid hours to get it back on track so going off his own admission i think yanbu BUT that being said other fasting colleagues seem to be fine so its not as if its a general thing.

At a prevous work place they was a women that come the time of ramidian would fast but be prone to passing out etc refused to eat or drink etc but could not do her job safely (think lab work) she passed out/feinted when carrying dangerous chemicals and caused the lab to be closed for 5 days for decomatamtion and was let go for gross misconduct (it wasnt medical related she was fine all year round bar ramidian) she than attempted to sue my employer for religous disgrmiantion and failed (the chemicals could of killed her and others in the lab and has since had her liecence revoked so can no longer work in a lab with this level of chemicals)

So yes fasting can effect people doing there jobs (espically manual jobs can you imagine being a builder and fasting + refusing to drink as well in these long hot days?) but its down to the person and if it compromises your job effectness / safety it should be banned and or not allowed to go to tribuneal if fired due to incidents directly caused by your fasting as employers have to be very very careful around this time of year as apprently you need to make allownces for these religous practices even if it does effect their work (you cannot make them take annaul leave during the fast / send them home if you consider them unfit for work etc as it counts as a protected charatirict and is discrimanitation.

I've never fasted during Ramadan, but as many of my friends and colleagues are Muslim (including my housemates at uni) I've seen first hand what happens

That's like saying I have first hand experience seeing what parenthood is like because lots of my friends and families have children.

Gives you no idea whatsoever until you are a parent yourself

Since when were people not allowed to express opinions on something they haven't personally experienced?

teacup of course non parents can have some idea of what being a parent is like. No one lives in a vacuum. We live with and interact with other people, of course we make observations about their lives.

Observations about something you have not experienced yourself are pretty worthless

Teacup. Now you're speaking nonsense.
Observations and experience in childcare and fasting are valid.

I was a person who fainted once in theatre. It was an emergency came in at 5pm we got to theatre at 1am. I hadn't eaten since 1pm and went out like a light. Was humiliating and dangerous. It's why I think eating regularly if you are a HCP is imperative. I would say that my viewpoint is as valid as I have direct theatre experience and knowledge how the body works when deprived of food under these circumstances.

teacup you're being a bit silly now. Do midwives have to have children themselves before they can make observations about a pregnant woman? Do doctors and nurses have to suffer from cancer before they know anything about it? Of course not.

teacup I have never personally experienced racism, disability or extreme poverty. I have never been a migrant or a refugee or lived in a war torn country. Does this mean I can't have a valid opinion, stand up for those who have or take part in debates on these issues? I think not.

Observations about something you have not experienced yourself are pretty worthless

Nonsense. I've never had children but from everything I've heard / seen childbirth can be extremely painful. I've never been a refugee but from all accounts it's a terrible experience.

What makes those observations "pretty worthless", teacup?

I wouldn't allow my child to undergo surgery if any staff preforming the procedure wasn't up to it. I'm sure lack of food doesn't affect everyone in the same way but I imagine it could be disastrous for some

Also why does everything have to be a dig at muslims? I'm sure most people would feel the same way no matter the faith of the surgeon, especially as a child needing surgery would be an extremely worrying time anyway! Speaking of such, I hope your DC is ok OP

whats the controversy with saying roads get more dangerous during ramadan? they do in muslim countries, so much so that they have special campaigns/extra policing during ramadan. depending on where you live, it can get more dangerous i would imagine.

back to the thread. . .i would be ok with it if it was not late surgery eg after 5 or 6 pm. last few hours are the hardest i think. hopefully a surgeon would be professional enough to not operate if they felt it affected performance as well

it is not like 5:2 imo. dehydration is awful for affecting concentration (imo and ime only)

sweets are really bad for your childs teeth, op. were they sugar free?

(runs away )

Why all the coyness in saying 'became apparent' instead of the later revealed 'he said he was fasting'. The Op gets arsey when she is called on her drip feeds and the 'I'm just a concerned parent' halo begins to slip.

This is just another piss poor anti Muslim thread dressed up as 'concern' for something else because the OP is too cowardly to say it.

I am one of those people who can't go just a few hours not eating without getting moody, irritable and lose concentration and I always wonder how people fasting cope. I think that sunrise and sunset are closer together in Middle Eastern countries due to being closer to the equator so I think people who are Muslims have it rough when it comes to Ramadam in the UK, and wonder how they get on in countries like Norway where the day is almost 24 hours long.
It's really interesting to read that in Muslim countries the working day and other aspects of life are adapted to counteract the affects of fasting, and also that people whose work can be impacted can adapt their fasting, ie, eat and drink something.
YANBU OP and I don't see why this can't be discussed without accusations of Muslim bashing.

"Observations about something you have not experienced yourself are pretty worthless"

That's Darwin's theory of evolution fucked then.

YANBU. Most of my colleagues are Muslim. Last summer during Ramadan one colleague rear-ended a car at traffic lights driving home from work. It has been a long shift, hot day and she admitted to me that she had just been completely drained, not from lack of food but from lack of water.

*had been not has been

isetan please explain where I have been arsey?

I wasn't being "coy" and saying "it became apparent" was simply to save on words and to avoid the drawn out explanation that he told me that he was fasting in response to being offered a sweet no not from the DC that was fasting, the other one which is frankly irrelevant and dull. If you consider that revelation a drip feed you've clearly not been on MN long

I would be concerned, just as I was concerned about a CS I had the day after a World Cup match where the surgeon was clearly hungover having been celebrating Englands onlywin.

However, the fact is, surgeons are operating after heavy drinking the night before, lack of sleep the night before, emotional trauma etc etc etc. You don't always know which surgeons they are, and how it affects their practice.

We just have to trust that those people who are fasting/emotionally upset/sleep deprived or whatever and their colleagues can make a call as to whether the person is fit to carry out their job.

The same goes for other jobs with a lot of responsibility, eg airline pilot.

YANBU OP, I would want to change the date.

Fasting whether for religious or health reasons is always detectable in the breath.