To think TAs don't really aid students' learning

[Bridgeovertheriver]

And as such, why is so much spent on them? (Assisting students with a physical disability excepted obviously.)

Do you know, this is one area where you could present me with a cast iron, gold sealed, peer reviewed piece of research and I would still ignore it ...

Interesting thing this research does look reasonably reliable, peer reviewed etc but you have to look at the question its asking.

The study is looking at TA input as a measure of how much time each child spends with a TA, when all other factors such as SEN and previous educational attainment are controlled for. The kids who spent more time with the TAs made less relative progress.

Now all that actually says is that if a child spends relatively more time being taught by a person who is (probably) less qualified to teach, they will make less educational progress than with a qualified teacher

There is no measurement there of what happens if you have a class TA whose role is to enable the teacher to teach, and to divide extra time fairly equally among the kids under the teachers direction. Does that improve the outcomes of a whole class compared to a whole class who don't get that enabling influence?

Nor does it tell you what happens if TAs deliver carefully planned interventions to specific groups of kids under the overall guidance of the class teacher. Which might not be a lot in terms of 'time spent with TA' but might well show an impact in the overall outcomes of the class.

Yes, probably from this research it is not an effective use of money to use poorly trained and managed TAs to 'babysit' the most disruptive or underachieving kids (of whom I have one, by the way). But no way does it say that the TA role itself is useless!

Before you jump to conclusions based on the answer, have a damn good look at the question

I strongly object to your comments phoenixrose that a lot of TAs are lazy. In my experience the opposite is true; many teachers can't be bothered to organise their time properly and help TAs to plan and teach students. Don't forget that TAs are paid a ridiculously low wage and are NOT expected to do their own planning; this year, however, I have been teaching students for the level 6 English SATs with no help at all from the class teacher. Luckily, I have a degree in English and in fact my qualifications are better than hers! Many TAs are massively taken advantage of; please bear that in mind when referring to them as "lazy".

Anecdotal evidence pertaining to one TA or groups of them in any one school doesn't mean the data is defunct.

Why can't teachers control a class of 30 without a TA. My mother was a teacher in the 60s-80s and she controlled a class of 40 plus.

IMO TAs are used as cheap labour - they should NOT be teaching as they are not trained, In my kids school they were mummies from the playground who were friends with the teacher.

Because school is no longer about rows of children sitting quietly they are expected to investigate use equipment and move about... its about learning skills not parrot fashion learning. Its about including all children at all levels and helping those who cant. Not leaving anyone behind. Dyslexic children can speak their work which would be marked down if written. Children who can write use computers to type, children can showcase work in projects. Topics are used as a base .... to help them write stories or letters the topic is irrelevant to some degree it is the spring board to their writing.

I don't think we can compare to the 60-80s really (although we had tas when I was at school in the 80s) as thankfully education has moved on a lot since then.

Generally the 'teaching' that a Ta does is more reinforcing what they have already been taught and making sure they get it.

Saying "just have smaller classes/more teachers" doesn't work either (although of course smaller classes would be great) because sometimes that extra adult is needed. DS often has asthma attacks at school as it is now the Ta takes control when he has an attack so no need to disrupt the class, with no Ta who looks after the other 19 children while the teacher sorts him/gets help?

TAs aren't teaching they are reinforcing what the teacher is doing. 2 pairs of hands are better than one in any situation.

I think some TAs can undermine a teacher though which isn't good and can sometimes hinder the students but most are very good and do improve the dc's chances.

woodhill - TAs are teaching in lots of school - some may be effective but others are not. In some schools Lower achieving children are removed from the classroom for "extra" support but effectively this means that the support is "instead of" time with the teacher rather than "in addition to" teacher time. Therefore the children with the most need often get the least time with the teacher - that can't be right.

I think TAs are essential in the classroom but feel it should be in a support role unless the TA has specialist knowledge or training (and if they are acting in a teaching role they should be paid the unqualified teacher rate).

I totally agree Mitzi. I do work in education. I don't think they should be 'teaching' otherwise it is unfair on the teachers who have that qualification. I am sure some are very knowledgeable but it is a fine line.

I suppose in primary they do get taken out in small groups by TA and they are being instructed by the TA, I haven't been in primary for a long time

amothersplaceisinthewrong have you read any of the posts about the changes in education, and how children with sen need support in the classroom?

Schools/education has changed massively.
Prior to TA's (approx 15-20 yrs ago) the only other support in classrooms was by Nursery Nurses who had taken the 2 yr full time course. (maths/English gcse's, minimum of 4 passes was required to even get a place on the course).
The title 'nursery nurse' is a little misleading as people assume you are qualified to work only with nursery age. You are qualified upto age 7/8 with mainstream & to age 18 special needs.
The courses did cover in depth a broad range of topics/child psychology, how children learn and special needs to name but a few. You did a wide range of placements in different settings during the 2 yrs.

Nn's were always employed in special schools & always in reception class. Once the special needs schools began to close and more children were then integrated into mainstream nn's were employed on a 1:1 basis to support these pupils. It was a chosen career/vocation that took dedication and hard work to complete. (Unpaid!) Not a job you just 'fell into'.

Ta's largely came about as they were cheaper than nn's (2 for the price of 1!).

I do realise that times have moved
on significantly now and there are many fantastic Ta's working in both primary & secondary who are highly qualified/trained. But there are far too many who choose it to fit around their children, have no training or skills and it's an easy option. Just having had children does not prepare you for working effectively in a school/classroom environment.
Many level 3's/hlta's are the original nn's.

I still find it hard to believe that people can be employed in schools (and be paid!) to work with children with no relevant qualifications or experience but 'learn on the job!'

I'm a SALT by training and working as a 1:1 TA currently .The TA's I work with are amazing, they're hugely experienced and improve the children's learning no end.

As a teacher who works closely with an excellent TA, who I would be able to run the activities I do in my lessons. I can honestly say you need to do a lot more research on this subject before you make such an ill informed and ridiculous opinion.

If children are removed from the classroom for small group support then that support should be provided by a teacher not a TA.

HELLO!!! Does anyone on here actually read the posts or just come on and make ridiculous and ill-informed comments without having any idea what they are talking about?!
As I have already said, I am a TA and I DO teach small groups, often with very little or no back up from the class teacher. I am not saying that this is right; in fact I think that TAs are often being seriously taken advantage by schools and expected to do the work of a teacher without the pay or career possibilities.
Bilberry - the reason small groups are not taught by a teacher when they are taken out is to save money for the school. And here endeth the lesson on stating the ** obvious!

Coco has summed up the situation perfectly.

At my school I've worked with some fantastic TA's, many with degree qualifications. Unfortunately they don't stay in the job long as it's so low paid and there's very little room for professional development. As such, the core unit of TA's does have a few ladies who don't have good literacy or numeracy. This is a huge disadvantage to the students who look to them for support. Regardless of the TA's level of training, our school seems to give them more and more responsibility; they are asked to run intervention groups, help give feedback on work in lessons and in some cases prepare resources. Essentially they are the school's dogsbodies. But the quality of intervention is largely poor and the students aren't making the progress they could.

Instead of meeting the problem with quality training, school demands even more from the TA's on the assumption that will help. Instead the TA's feel they are essentially being exploited for very little wage, the individuals who see being a TA as a career are completely unmotivated.They need to either reform the position or scrap it all together.

pasta my school takes small groups out for interventions led by a teacher. It's all about where schools want to spend money. We (as teachers) pay for it through having to still cover lessons, but intervention is taken seriously and it has a decent implementation of 121s for students that need it. And that includes the most able, least able and target Bs but getting Cs. We get them all.

Golfhotel - your school sounds much better in that respect than mine, then.
I do feel that TAs have a pretty bad deal in many schools; we are not paid to take shed loads of responsibility and yet are given more and more to do with less and less help. I am almost inclined to agree with a previous poster that maybe the position should be abolished; then schools could either take people on with no qualifications and just expect them to give some general help in the classroom, OR take on qualified people and pay them a decent salary. At the moment there is a massive variation in what TAs can be expected to do, and in some cases children may be the ones who lose out.

When you have 2 or 3 really incredibly badly behaved kids and you have the support of a TA, it does mean that if you prepare the TA properly (very hard to find time as of course they are entitled to lunch breaks and don't tend to arrive early or leave late, and have no ppa time) you can ask her to have the 3 with the work you are doing and can then teach the remaining without issue. The 3 are excited to leave the classroom and have more individual help. The rest of the class and teacher is utterly relieved not to have their lesson interrupted every 8 seconds.

I actually think this is bad practice, the children shouldn't be taken out the TA should be supporting the teacher to manage their behaviour in the classroom, not getting them out of the way.

I think AllPizzas that yes in some cases this can be bad practice but also if the badly behaved ( and there are getting to be more & more of them) remain in the classroom it can often mean that the education of a large proportion of the rest of the class is severely disrupted . I am a TA and work in KS1 where we have children who single handedly disrupt a lesson constantly and I am essentially powerless to stop them. One child will run around the classroom playing tag with children who are trying to learn, constantly call out or name call and also be very unkind to the other children - hitting kicking etc. I am not allowed to physically restrain him (nor would I want to) - it's like a war zone sometimes and can easily be prevented by removing him from the class before his behaviour builds up to this point. Some quiet time with a TA can prevent this kind of thing.

Depends... some cant sit still, listen, understand theres a time and place ... not focused distracting disrupting others. Why should the class suffer because of a few? If these few need more attention and support and the teacher is teaching the other 30 kids whats wrong with that.

Just to add... Many TAs aren't qualified .. They are approached by HTs to fill in here and there and then at some point may get a contract... TAs have to fill a number of roles... If your child has specific learning difficulties please don't feel secure that your child will get one to one attention from the class teacher!!! In a class of 30 it won't happen!!! It's logical!!! They have to teach 30 children!!! The TA will be asked to focus on a group which varies from day to day... It's really hard to witness a 6 year old child who simply doesn't understand what's been asked of them... You can give another one to one input but then you then have to focus on a group which is different every day as TAs can't just sit with the less able... They might be asked to extend the learning of the most able! ... In my 15 year experience ( with post-graduate qualifications in Special Needs) there are so many children who find accessing the curriculum really difficult but unless they have a "Statement" then there's not too much support available ... Incredibly.. There are are quite a number of parents who are in total denial that their children may have difficulties( understandably) who refuse any extra help ie social groups , maths groups etc... Because they are terrified of having their children labelled as having SEN! Sometimes it's just because they haven't understood the learning outcome... And just need a few short sessions... Also... And I'm sorry to have a pop here but children are taken out of school for a week or two and come back utterly behind so the TA has to take them out on a one to one basis at the expense of the other children to fill them in as the SATS exams might be imminent... Oh and don't tell me that they're not important because they suddenly are when it comes to parents evening and the results have been published !