To think TAs don't really aid students' learning

[Bridgeovertheriver]

And as such, why is so much spent on them? (Assisting students with a physical disability excepted obviously.)

we did have parent helpers and did craft, no ICT as no computers, did music

I find this a great discussion.
I am about to train as a teaching assistant, I have been a classroom helper for the last 6 years with my own children and now they aren't there I would like to carry on.
It has really surprised me how many people have said that I really really don't need to do the course as I have the equivalent experience. I have helped out, nothing more and wouldn't feel confident to apply for jobs before doing this course.
as Classroom helper I have listened to children read, help them learn in small groups of 4-5 maths english and crafts. Made wall displays, collated work
and lots of photocopying.

Haven't rtft, sorry but that's an outrageously inaccurate statement. Our TAs are highly trained and take groups of all abilities. They don't do the planning, we do that. In fact we run a literacy programme every morning where the children are in very small, finely differentiated groups. 7 groups for 46 children. All the teachers and all the TAs in KS1 take a group. Since we've been working like this our literacy levels have improved massively. That's just one example.

I work as a TA and would agree that all TAs should have at the very least GCSE grade C in English, maths and a science, as TAs nowadays are very often left to do a huge amount of teaching with very little support. However, I am sure that this will never be insisted on, as then salaries would probably have to be increased; at the moment schools frequently use TAs to save on the cost of a qualified teacher which is wrong for everyone concerned, especially the children.
It is interesting that the research seems to be showing that it is better for the children with SEN to be supported in the class by a TA, rather than taken out and taught separately. I'm sure that this true, but the teachers themselves often prefer for these children to be taken out, presumably as it makes life easier for them. Another big problem is that there is often very little time for teachers and TAs to get together to discuss what should be done with individual children, leaving TAs to just "wing it" as best as they can.
To sum up; in my experience it's not the TAs who are at fault but the way that they are utilised.

MummySparkle you could have been DS's TA last year. He had an awful year in yr 8 for various reasons and his TA made the world of difference by being there for him during the day when we couldn't be.

grannytomime

In reference to "not you meritabel" I was previously talking specifically about non-teachers who have little understanding of education. Of course there are lots of non-teachers who DO have a good understanding of education.

There is a general issue with people feeling fit to pass judgement on schools and teachers and compare education today to the way they were taught, which is rather a narrow approach. Michael Gove would be the greatest example of this...!

GoblinLittleOwl
"As for managing a class of 30 4-5 year olds on your own: what do you think we used to do in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s?"

This from Maryz answers that

"They just beat the shite out of us if we misbehaved, and chucked the less able (or less able to concentrate) children out at the age of about 12 (having put them in corners with dunce's hats on their heads, or standing outside doors waiting for the headmaster with his strap for much of their shcool time)."

Also, I HAVE taught my reception class on my own several times. It is do-able but it means we cannot have free-flow provision between the indoor and outdoor classroom. The children's provision suffers. It also means that meaningful discussion with children is extremely limited, because I end up having to 'crowd manage' rather than facilitate learning. If TAs weren't available in earlier decades than I would argue that children were much worse off.

What support is in place (or was in the 70s and 80s) for the children with sn?

idontseeanydragons I was thinking of a particular year 8 class last school year when I wrote that! Maybe I was. I think of my classes at my last scool often and wonder how they are getting on now. Our other department TA was shocking, and over 50% of the dept left last school year too. I hope my replacement has a good rapport with the students. Yes they were challenging as a group, but individually they all had their hearts in the right place.

Apart from finding them invaluable as a teacher they were fantastic with my son and he wouldn't have done half so well without their help.
We managed without them in 1970s because there was more time, it wasn't so high pressured but then those with SNs didn't get the extra support that they needed. We didn't hit anyone!

I have no other words.

It depend upon the TA. Some of the TA's in ds's mainstream school were just babysitting him because they didn't have training to be able to help him learn. For some children they were a great help.

The title of Teaching Assistant says it all - when I was training to be a teacher, I was told that the job of a TA is to enable the teacher to do their job well. So, no, they are not specifically there for the students first - they manage behaviour during carpet time so the teacher isn't constantly interrupted and sorting out bad behaviour; they organise and prepare so the teacher can focus on teaching the students instead of photocopying; they follow instructions from the teacher to teach small groups, and their teaching only falls flat when they are unable to follow instructions thoroughly.

TAs are valuable, if they do their job properly. Sadly there are a lot out there who are lazy and only do the job because it fits in with childcare.

You also need to keep in mind that in earlier decades, children with special needs or bad behaviour were either taught in schools for difficult children, or mental health units, or simply kept at home "for their own good". My dad was just telling me about the "mental school" in South East London that wasn't too far from him, how they'd all go down and throw food over the school gates at the "special" kids, and how guilty he feels about it now.

Educational standards in the 70s and 80s were pretty woeful.

Some of the TA's at my sons school do a fantastic job. One is fluent in French, so teaches the French lessons. The best one has a maths degree and without her intervention and support my son would not be doing as well with his maths. In the 2 years she was his TA, he went up 6 sub-levels in maths. She was amazing. Very sad day when she retired.

Phoenix, that is horrible, but exactly the same thing used to happen at the special school that I used to help out at when I was a teenager (this was the 80s) - kids threw food and rubbish over the fence at the children at the special school. There was also little teaching done at the school, despite there being a huge range of abilities there. It felt very much as though it was a place to keep children away from the mainstream. I have just googled the school and it is still there as a special school under a new name, and looks lovely.

The TA's at ds's school are amazing, he is in a special needs resource within a mainstream school, some are there to help with behaviour and facilitate learning, others are more experienced and have training in SALT etc. My ds wouldn't be able to access mainstream at all, wouldn't be able to do PE, would struggle to communicate with his friends - without the help and support of TAs.

My mother (teacher 60's, 70's and 80's) recalls regularly having to leave a child to draw train tracks on the blackboard whilst she taught the rest of the class. The pitiful EP service back then simply weren't interested in helping. I still remember her joy when two-thirds through the school year said child actually uttered some words. Clearly, this child missed out on a lot of learning.

My ds's have had some excellent TA's who have enabled them to access learning which otherwise they would be unable to. Infact they have probably been better than the teachers in understanding their EBD needs because they have the responsibility of fewer children to look after and, therefore, have more time to build up a relationship. Academically, it can be a problem as one freely admitted to me that even at primary their maths knowledge was way beyond her.

But even excepting the TA's meeting the needs of children with SEN surely given the astronomical rise in form-filling and bumph that teachers are expected to do these days I would have thought a TA is essential to allow the teacher time to teach.

Ds wouldn't have been allowed through the door of a mainstream school in the 1970's and I don't think he would have been educated wherever he went. I'm glad things have changed.

My DP used to be a TA, mainly supporting some of the kids with SEN. He helped a few of them really develop their maths as they were very interested in it, started a little football team and a science/astronomy group with his passion for those areas.

But no I'm sure none of that aided the kids' learning at all what a total waste of money

It's much cheaper to have a big group of children in one room with a teacher and a TA than it is to employ two teachers and split them in to two smaller classes.

They save money rather than cost it.

It also means children with disabilities can attend mainstream schools, if you want to see what used to happen to children with disabilities in the 70s look up Laurence Clark, that's Laurence Clark pHD, who spent most of his school days cutting out coloured paper.

Again saving money but actually providing a much better education for children with disabilities.

I feel mixed about this. Too often children with poor attainment or SEN get too much of their teaching from TAs when this is precisely the group who need the teacher's training and expertise. TAs can then become a barrier between the teacher and the child. Taking children out of the class for small group exercises puts an extra physical barrier in place and may stigmatise the child.

My ds attends a language unit for extra support, last term the unit teacher was off sick so he spent more time in mainstream class and was supported by the experienced unit nursery nurses (so more qualified than TA). He didn't make anything like the same progress as he did/does with his unit teacher.