To think TAs don't really aid students' learning

[Bridgeovertheriver]

And as such, why is so much spent on them? (Assisting students with a physical disability excepted obviously.)

Pushing you to answer a question is not being beligerant I have repeatedly asked you what you propose to improve the situation, but you don't appear to want to answer. Maybe your next career could be as a politician

Coolaschmoola - Surely it depends entirely on what the child needs the TA for? That's why I said what skills the TA needs is so specific to the child/children they are working with.

If a TA can't spell then they shouldn't be working with a child who needs help with grammar and spelling. However at the same time if a child is one who needs help to focus or calming down rather than specific help with English then surely someone with no qualifications, but a fantastic ability at calming children is a better bet than someone with a stream of qualifications who can't calm them?

That's where decent recruitment and utilisation comes in. The example earlier of the TA disrupting a child in an English lesson and not being able to assist him in maths makes me furious with the SLT of that school. That was a complete waste of a TA and totally let down that child.

However in the case of the lady I mentioned who had no formal qualifications she was well worth her salary. Her ability to keep the child she worked with specifically calm and on track meant that he didn't need to be separated from his class nearly as much. She didn't need stronger maths and English skills because she enabled the child to be part of the lesson with the teacher and the rest of the class. The positive impact she had on that child (and on the rest of his class as a result) was massive.

The LSA doing the work is, imo, a management issue. SLT should be dealing with that as it's a piece of nonsense and isn't helpful at all.

I do agree that dire TA's are an issue. I worked with one (she was supposed to be doing one-to-one support for a specific child) in Scotland who was so bad she was basically timetabled on photocopying from January until June when she could be let go due to school roll changes. It shouldn't be so difficult to get rid of someone who is shit at their job.

As for managing a class of 30 4-5 year olds on your own: what do you think we used to do in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s?

How many children were in those classes needing extra support?

Loving the 'well my class had 100 little terrors in and I managed to get into grammar school just fine' answers..
A good TA is invaluable to the individual student they might be assigned, the teacher and the class as a whole. My DS had a terrible year 8 and was assigned a wonderful TA who guided him through and he has blossomed into (and I quote his year 9 form tutor) "a lovely studious lad who is fully involved with the class and is hitting all of his targets".
The TA's I met at DD2's reception open evening are dedicated to the children (she is our third child going through the school) and are invaluable to the teachers.
So YABU. A good TA employed by a good school can be a godsend to both teachers, students and parents.

And by the way, I know of at least one person I went trough primary school with (1980's) who would have achieved much more if he had a dedicated 1-1 TA. He was severely dyslexic. As it stood at the time he was ridiculed by the teachers for being 'thick' and students were also encouraged to also ridicule him. The degree he achieved in his '30's was not exactly thanks to the education system of the 1980's and '90's.

"A good TA employed by a good school can be a godsend to both teachers, students, and parents" That sums things up well dragons

Like anything it's how they're used.

At our school most TAs are former teachers,observed regularly and expected to do helicopter support when in class and where appropriate.We got a particular mention during our very successful recent Ofsted report.

DD is in reception. Her class TA is wonderful and is a very valuable asset to their learning experience. She is very proactive at making sure reading books are changed and reads with every child in the class at least twice a week. She very much works alongside the teacher, rather than just hovering in the background mixing paint.
I know DD wouldn't have done so well this year without her help. So yes, YABU.

theoriginal

Chances are OP is a politician, or works for one.

imnot, you can get a TA for 6 to 10 grand and a teacher will set you back three times that. Lots of people want to be TAs (including qualified teachers) because of the family-friendly hours. There is a shortage of teachers in many areas. It is a workload and budget issue. My sister and I are both qualified teachers but she works as a TA. She works about 1/3 the hours I do (sadly for less than 1/3 of the pay, however).

I have 3 TAs in my class of 8 children. Couldn't get through the day, much less teach, without them. We're a very effective team. No physical disabilities, either.

Can someone explain how it is that there are so many TA's instead of more teachers/smaller classes?

Money. Teachers cost far more than TA's. Also smaller classes would mean a need for more classrooms/schools/buildings which would cost more again.

A good TA is invaluable. In my dc's school there isn't a single teacher I would describe as indispensable but there are three or four lovely TAs who the school just couldn't do without.
However, having worked as an LSA myself, I believe there are a lot of TAs who aren't up to the job. I think it could be solved by offering better training and also better recruitment. Unfortunately the salaries are so small you are really only confined to mums looking for family friendly jobs. If you want better quality TAs you will have to pay more and that is never going to happen.

I'd rather have the money spent on smaller classes and better facilities in SEN schools so they can cater for more students.

LSAs in SEN schools are essential. Many LSAs are ineffective in secondary schools I have worked in.

I am a governor in a primary school and I read this research with interest, because we have a team of TAs who I regard as awesome. However, I do think there are key issues about how they are recruited, trained, supported and managed.

I read the research linked to by OP as saying that children receiving most TA support made the least progress. The suggested cause was that these kids were being effectively taken off the class teachers watch and receiving much of their teaching directly from the TA. This creates a double whammy in that they are losing out on the whole class teaching (if being withdrawn) and are getting their teaching not from the person who is most highly trained and qualified at doing it. Interestingly we found a similar effect at a time when lots of our pupils with SEN were withdrawn to work directly with the SENCO. DS was one such child - it may have been a coincidence but when they stopped doing it, his performance sky rocketed.

The research also notes the value TAs bring (as some pps have identified) in helping kids to stay on task, prevent disruption, and generally making the classroom run smoothly. Essentially making sure the teacher can teach without interruption and that kids can access what they are teaching. You won't measure that as TA input per individual child of course.

We have very well qualified, probably ridiculously over qualified, TAs. The Deputy Head has put in a management, appraisal and development structure for them. They're all encouraged to specialise in areas such as EAL or particular SEN (eg my sons TA is also the school ASC 'specialist' TA). We try and hang onto them having recruited and developed them. If they run interventions, which they do, they are carefully planned, directed by SENCO, and there is evaluation of whether it worked or not.

What someone needs to try is comparing schools with similar intakes and either the well trained, supported and managed TAs, the 'bog standard' TA model, and no TAs at all - then test the effect on results.

There are an awful lot of teachers on this thread who think that you make an initialism plural by using an apostrophe... And in the same breath criticise a TA for not having an English GCSE!

Do you know, this is one area where you could present me with a cast iron, gold sealed, peer reviewed piece of research and I would still ignore it and say that TAs make a massive difference to the education of Jose that need extra help and all the other children in a class

And in a more measured reply: what Jennifersrabbit said !

I have a son and a daughter who have had SEN TAs attached to them since their entry to nursery. Some of the TA's have been invaluable and I will always remember their sensitivity, kindness and support. Ds in particular wouldn't have been in school without the fantastic support given by his very knowledgeable and capable TA's.
Dd had a fantastic TA in primary and she thrived and was increasingly independent. Unfortunately the TA support in secondary has been entirely different.
Dd has a team of TA's three of the four are worse than useless in fact rather than being a support they are a detriment because they remove dd from the support she would get from her peers and from the subject teacher.
Dd makes better progress if seated away from the TA (at my request) or if the TA isn't in the lesson and she is instead supported by the class teacher. It baffles me that this isn't seen as a problem yet when I questioned whether the support's effectiveness was measured it appeared to be a novel idea to the HT.
The TA's attached to dd seem to be under the impression that attending and sitting next to dd is support and because their effectiveness isn't routinely measured then they seem to be content in doing this and it goes unchallenged.
Following a safeguarding fail the TA's are now forced to document the support they are giving. Unsurprisingly, to me anyway, three of them are struggling because they don't support and so dd will be supported in the main by the HLTA who whilst not brilliant (although I think with time she could be) is at least ten times better than the three we will be losing.
For me I think good TA's are worth their weight in gold but to be good TA's the schools have to invest in their education and training whereas I don't think it's a priority for a lot of schools.

My DDs TA is amazing, she read Fantastic MR Fox at the weekend all by herself. Two months ago she wouldn't have been interested in even trying and it's mostly down to her reading booster sessions with a TA.

Anything I tried with her just resulted in sulks which really upset me as I love books. I will be forever grateful to her TA and as DD continues to discover the joy of books so will she.