To think TAs don't really aid students' learning

[Bridgeovertheriver]

And as such, why is so much spent on them? (Assisting students with a physical disability excepted obviously.)

I've no intention of saying so either, since I haven't read her statement, know her reading and spelling age (or even her actual age - just that she's still at primary school!) as, with the greatest of respect, my concern is how TAs are deployed generally not with your daughter. She is your concern, and it sounds as if her needs are well met at the moment.

You keep saying about the General situation and refusing to believe or engage with any particular examples. I don't know what your agenda is, trying to gauge public feeling, trying to stir discontent? I think you need to be more honest.

I think I have answered all your questions, Margo, although you have missed some of my responses. The only question I am not answering is the one about how I would teach a posters daughter, which, without knowing anything about her other than her dyslexia, I don't feel I can do and besides, the thread isn't about that posters child.

But you are suggesting , unless ive totally missed the point that one to one support is not useful. You said in your op that tas are not worth the money that is spent on them other than for children with physical disabilities. Does my child's disability not count? What about children with mental health issues ? do they get sent out the back of the class?
i absolutely don't expect you to comment on my child. So tell me how you might support a dyslexic child in your class? for EXAMPLE

No, you haven't. Why did you start the thread? You keep saying the general situation needs an overhaul? Why? Look around you. It works in plenty of cases.

I feel one to one support is not useful in the way it is currently used, that is correct. That is a general point rather than a specific one.

I feel that if what you are saying is that children with difficulties such as dyslexia can only access the curriculum with support - unless I have misunderstood - that seems a rather topsy turny way of looking at things. The teacher has a degree and a teaching qualification yet cannot adequately support the child - the only one who can do that is the person who has not (or at least is not required to have them.)

I certainly don't wish to get into individual teaching methods and concepts but in any case, your question is far too complex and broad to answer here in any great depth.

I work in a secondary school. You are very wrong op.

It was a very interesting discussion, ladies, but I do have to go out now and I think that's best as Lem and margo are becoming increasingly belligerent.

It is a pity that one cannot be critical of the system without people feeling individuals are being criticised.

Gosh, well, if you work in a secondary school you must know everything

I'm not sure I think it does work well from the examples given. I've said my piece about my son's TA, and I accept we may just have been unlucky there. But it's also not right for the fabulous ones who really make a difference to receive such a pittance for what they do. It would be far better to have stricter requirements for becoming a TA, and then to ensure that they receive proper pay and proper recognition. If we're going to spend £4.2 billion a year on TAs, or however much it was, then we should ensure that there's far less of a lottery for the children who need the extra help, and that we don't have a whole cohort of workers [many of whom are clearly excellent] who feel undervalued, denigrated and underpaid.

Bye or stick around. You learn a thing or two.

The teacher can't support a child adequately because they have twenty something more to support too.

Absolutely, Sally.

Absolutely.

I would imagine the usefulness depends on so many factors- the school, individuals who make up the class cohort, SEN pupils (for whatever reason), the teacher as an individual. In my personal experience ta support is totally necessary, I work in an inner city primary school with 80% EAL pupils who require fairly intensive one to one support to even begin to access learning,for example if two pupils who speak the same language at home are in a class together and struggle to understand instructions the chances are without the level of help a teacher alone cannot give they will chat and not even attempt to engage. Added to this it is a deprived area with a high rate of fsm pupils,looked after children, child protection issues and SEN pupils. In my opinion therefore without ta help a huge proportion of children would fail to reach their potential.

Ladies...huge assumption!

Its a fairly straightforward question actually.

I am interested to know how the teacher with the degree can help my child with , as you say, complex needs when she has 30 other children with varying needs in the class? I know many ta's who have degrees btw. Most of the ta's in dd's school are qualified teachers who choose not to be full time teachers for various reasons.

I think it is, thankfully vastly different to my day when it was just a teacher in front of 30 children. 20 years ago my dd would most likely have been labelled stupid or lazy and left unsupported. now she at least has a chance .

I think TAs do help the students they are supporting but often indirectly benefit the rest of the group in a roundabout way e.g. you calm a disruptive student so the teacher can carry on with the lesson.

TA may help in maths and break down a problem and can explain it in a practical way. I know I am stating the obvious.

it's not an exact science but an extra pair of hands is hopefully beneficial to the teacher and students. you can improve a student's confidence.

I don't think the OP will be back. Or not with this name.

I am a trained teacher, but work primarily as a year 6 TA (returning to work). I also do supply teaching at my school. 2 afternoons I do ppa cover as lead TA. I am supposed to have a support. More often than not the supports are 'useless'. The one I had yesterday sat at one table the whole afternoon drawing pictures!
Most of the Ta's at our school work bloody hard and do a brilliant job with difficult children for next to no money. Without them the teachers would find it nigh on impossible to teach the whole class.Having said that when I first started teaching TA's didn't exists. You were on your own all week with the class. I managed, but I would have probably got better results without good support.

If a school is well-managed then TAs are used effectively. Interventions are well-run and SMART. Teacher/SENCO and TA two-way communication is a must. If a TA is undervalued, has no chain of command, no feedback, no specific targets for a child then it is a waste of everyone's time. Regarding TA's 'doing' the work for children it is up to the teacher to model what is acceptable. A TA's mantra should be to enable independent learners.

When I was a 5 year old I was in a class of 48, no TAs back in those days. I don't know how they did it but they did. I was in an inner city area, I remember one girl in my class had English parents yet when we got to 11 over 50% went to grammar school. They were formidable ladies.

How effective TAs are is entirely down to the school and the Head in my experience. I've wored in some schools where they were utilised brilliantly and it really benefitted the children, but in others they were utilised as well. I also worked in one where they were very undervalued, there was a real thinking of "teacher's helpers" amongst the SLT and teachers which, naturally, pissed off the decent TAs who left and the ones willing to stay were of poorer quality and simply didn't have the same level of impact.

There are also many, many ways in which the amount of help a TA can give is pretty unmeasurable. If the most able kids in the class hit their targets and the less able kids hit ther targets how do you accurately measure what would have happened if the TA hadn't stopped Jonny Troublemaker disrupting every less?

I also disagree that there should be a specific level of qualification for them. The worst TA I ever worked with was educated to degree level and the best ever was a lady who'd left school at 14, had a few random jobs before having her family then she'd ended up running a toddler group for years and years. She had no formal child-based qualifications, but she was fab. Different situations require a different kind of person.

Also when I was at school they mostly managed without TA's, but the provision of specialist schools hadn't been completely decimated, it was acceptable for the "naughty" or difficult pupils to be sent out of the class to sit outside the office all day and teachers weren't expected to deal with 25 tonnes of paperwork as well as teach.

Yes , Yes, Yes. I so agree with the poster. Having a TA working with children in the class means that many children rely on her to tell them what to do, rather than listening and being independent. The TA's intervention conceals the child's true ability; the children become increasingly dependent, and a vicious circle ensues.

As for managing a class of 30 4-5 year olds on your own: what do you think we used to do in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s? I started with 38 children in Reception, just me, and they came to school wearing ties, belts, shoelaces, button -neck shirts; we managed, and I had to hear them read every day.

Discipline was stronger, and the children didn't receive mixed messages.

TAs are necessary now because of the ridiculous impositions assessment makes on a teacher's time. Looking at the dismal primary education results, 26th in world ranking, children are not doing better now, despite all the help they receive.

I could go on, and frequently do, sorry. (some of my best friends are TAs!)

LaLyra - but would you want someone who uses of instead of have and isn't a secure speller working with your child on grammar and spelling? Someone who has no idea how to use a comma or apostrophe checking their written work?

As an English teacher I think it's wrong that there isn't a requirement for a C in literacy and numeracy for people so involved in educating children. If they can't do it themselves they can't support children to learn it either.

Sorry, but I want my child to learn how to do things correctly as well as have a good relationship with a TA.

I've had an LSA in one of my classes regularly DO the work for a learner despite being asked not to. Worst thing was she was making mistakes in it. I had to request a change because she was negatively impacting his learning.