To think TAs don't really aid students' learning

[Bridgeovertheriver]

And as such, why is so much spent on them? (Assisting students with a physical disability excepted obviously.)

Latebreakfast I am pretty sure the Early Years curriculum has changed a fair bit since the seventies!!

Money-wise, my HTLA gets paid pretty poorly. She is worth so much more. We have a couple of TAs in school which are not quite as brilliant/motivated as her, and I do think that low pay is a contributing factor to this.

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if I'm repeating.

From "The Deployment and Impact of Support Staff Project"
www.ioe.ac.uk/diss_research_summary.pdf

"there was consistent negative relationship between staff ratings of the amount of support a pupil received and the progress they made over the year in English and mathematics, and in addition at Wave 2 in science. The more support pupils received over the year, the less progress made."

I am old enough to remember a time before widespread TA employment. I had an hour a day in my NQT year with a year 1 class. The TA helped with displays and sticking in children's work. IME A good TA can have a positive impact on how a class runs lightening my workload and providing additional pastoral care and support. However, the reverse can also be true.

Many TAs are being asked to carry outa teaching role with the training, planning and preparation time or the pay. The research shows that TAs are only effective if they have proper training and ongoing support.

Should say without the training ...

Wait... I might be reading this wrong but surely the more support a child is receiving the more they must be struggling. Therefore, the more likely it is that that child will STILL not make expected progress, even with additional support. It is likely that they are still making better support with the TA help than without.

What should we do? NOT offer extra support to those that need it? Teachers with full time class responsibility certainly wouldn't have time to do this.

I think the pastoral care support staff offer can make a real difference to the students and they may see things that the teacher may not.

couldn't help myself but comment!

I find TAs often very useful in the classroom, but mainly I don't know if they're coming or who is coming, so I can't really plan ahead to let them know what we are doing. I don't think TAs should be used to teach classes, although I have seen it done of course.

What happened in schools in the 70's is hardly relevant - smaller classes, Sen dc went unsupported, my dad in the 60's and 70's had teachers that were drunk, fell asleep, smoked in class. Corporal punishment was used, dc could bunk off easily and troubled dc fell off the radar - hardly the golden era of education

Schools couldn't operate without them these days. My first question as a supply teacher was 'have I got a TA?' It makes a world of difference. Lots of them are teachers anyway who don't want a teachers work load. Otherwise generally over qualified and want a child friendly job.

I started teaching in 1970s and it was a different job. You didn't get TAs and you didn't need them. They are essential now.

Exactly, Maddening!

Hate the attitude of "well it worked for me...". Going to school does not make you an expert at teaching! I've been to the doctors, but I'm not a medical professional either

Not you, Mehitabel, as clearly you are a teacher...

latebreakfast Seriously... You ask what is different from teaching in the 70's? It's a totally different job from what it was then. You have zero idea of the workload and pressure we have to put up with. When I was at school in the 70's, all the teaching was done from a text book. There was barely any differentiation and teachers taught what they wanted. No Ofsted, no government intervention like today-and I could go on and on.

Compare that to a day in the classroom now...

Our TAs are invaluable. People seriously have no idea what teaching a class of 30 children is like.

My DSs both have amazing TAs, they do so much in class with them, and it's always someone extra they can ask for help.

Mehitable back in those days, those who had SN struggled like myself and we had to sink or swim. I had SN, dyslexia, dev delayed, and would have really done better with extra help.

classes were not smaller in the 70s, 40 in my class

More often than not the TA has to spend a lot of time with the very less able who cannot for many,many reasons make the expected progress of most of the other pupils... Eg scribing work that would otherwise be utterly unintelligible etc... And consequently the statistics "prove" that these children don't make the progress therefore TAs aren't necessary!!!!! More to the point is that TAs help to boost self esteem or facilitate the children's day to day lives in school... Eg spending time on a one to one basis to calm their fears or organise their resources... Things that a class teacher simply cannot spend precious teaching time on.... Eg would you like it if your DCs class teacher had to spend 20 minutes away from the class to calm a child down who was scared of going out onto the playground? Or who simply couldn't understand the the numeracy lesson that the other 29 were able to?

Where were all these small classes in the past? In the 70s my kids were in classes of 35 in reception. I was in a class of 48 at the end of the 50s my brother was in a class of 48 in the 60s. Mixed ability classes and I can assure you not all SEN children were in special schools, there were certainly children with physical, emotional and educational special needs where I went to school. Some disappeared every now and then to go to special open air schools and then came back. When I look back some were almost certainly dyslexic but not diagnosed in the 50s, well at least not where I was.

What made it work? Well I'm not sure but I was taught by nuns and we wouldn't have messed about and I don't suppose teachers get that level of respect now.

Children were also used to teach other children, I can certainly remember helping the poor readers when I was 9 or 10, everyone in the top group was matched with a child in the bottom group (not very politically correct but that was how it was described) and we would hear them read for I suppose 10 minutes every morning. We also did lots of really boring learning by rote. Not sure how kids would like that now.

Mehitabel6 you sound very defensive, if people are going to have a discussion then they can share experiences maybe from a different time maybe from a different culture. You can still comment on a medical experience as a consumer as you can with education.

Not you, Mehitabel, as clearly you are a teacher..

Ah so there we have it, only teachers are allowed to comment so a closed discussion. What a pity people have such closed minds.

Sorry it was Maddening who sounded defensive not Mehitable

I forgot-in the 70's, if you were naughty, you got smacked by the teacher, board rubbers chucked at you and sent out the classroom to stand in the corridor all day.

Must try that tomorrow...

TA impact the whole class as well.,, there would be no school trips, sports teams, events, treats, swimming lessons, etc. Like people said in the 70`s teacher taught you listened or you were excluded. All teaching was board work and year end tests ,,, spelling was out of 20. There was no science ict cooking, nearly all maths and english, no practical lessons other than art. Teachers want the kids in class taking part.. tas dealing with the child whos hungry, not dressed right, crying because of upset at home, upset at being bullied list goes on, the teachers cant teach and deal with all the other stuff.

How rude! I have been a TA in a few schools, and I KNOW I have made a difference to countless students.

Imagine a class of 25 underpr students, most with challenging behaviour, and all working at a level 4 years below 'expectation'. And now think about having an additional adult in the room, one who can demonstrate the method to get the answers, encourage the students to think for themselves & find the answers. One who knows the behaviour policy and can sanction those that need it, or put a stop to any bad behaviour before it becomes an issue. One who can pop out of the classroom to get something and leave the teacher in there. One who can take small groups out and work on specific weaknesses. One who can take small groups out and stretch their higher abilities. One who can have a chat to an upset student and help them to return to the lesson. One who can supervise the class whilst the teacher is doing any of the above. And one who can step up and teach the lesson when the teacher has had an emergency operation and the cover teacher is utterly useless. Oh and one who gets paid pittance for that and more.

And you are telling me that I have had a negative impact on those students? Those same students that gave me thank you cards and a party when I went on matertiy leave.

Shame on you

Sorry, rather a lot of typos there... Fat fingers, small phone. But you get my gist.

And of course many TAs-like me, are trained teachers. So the children actually get the benefit of 2 teachers in a class. I too know I have made a big difference both accademically and emotionally to many children's lives.