To think TAs don't really aid students' learning

[Bridgeovertheriver]

And as such, why is so much spent on them? (Assisting students with a physical disability excepted obviously.)

"The teachers managed this just fine when I went to school in the 1970s.. Other than assisting children with special needs, what has changed to make them needed now but not then?"

Increased diagnoses of SEN, increased teacher workloads, the closing of specialist settings, guidelines to ensure that exclusions are fair and used as a last resort, better knowledge about the impact on children of removing from/keeping with peers...

Besides which, I was at primary school in the early 80s and, despite the smaller class sizes, there was frequently a 'classroom assistant' in the room.

Your description there is my main beef, if you like, Sally. I feel many students with specific needs are put under the same umbrella of 'get a TA to work with them.' This may not be right for all students, or of it is, it may not be needed in all subject areas. Plus, you then have a lottery gamble as to how confident the TA is in the subject area.

Yabvvvu, that is all! I gather you don't work in the field, so don't have a clue.

Margo - I feel you are correct, in a sense, although really a TA shouldn't be lesson planning. If they are to be used however, clearly more money is needed, both in the sense that the role requires further skills and qualifications and in the sense that training is needed.

It's not 'get a TA to work with them'. You're out of touch.

Latebreakfast - I had 2 "teachers" in charge of my class in my first year of primary school. (one was definitely a teacher, but no idea about the other)

My most enduring memory of primary school is of it always being noisy and chaotic - and that's 4 different schools, as we moved a lot.

Perhaps not where you work Margo but I am afraid in a considerable number of schools this is what happens and is happening, hence the concerns raised about the effectiveness of teaching assistants. Of course, I don't doubt some schools deploy TAs sensibly and well, but even in 'good' schools they are often managed poorly.

Why shouldn't a TA be lesson planning for the child she works with? Eg what are the new words? Which ones does X know? Which concepts will he have trouble with? How can I explain these better?

What's wrong with the above? My son's TA was amazing.

Trying to get good focused work without giving training or time or money then shouting that it doesn't work. So scrap it all. Somebody must be bottom of the class so might as well be the child with SEN. Eh?

As a maths teacher the TA's were often a bit of a pain really. The worst ones had very little subject knowledge and undermined the teacher, chatting and distracting students. There was the occasional gem though.

Thank god for the wonderful TAs at my dds special school, they are fanrastic and dd has really progressed, because of their intervention with her.

I don't work in a school but my son had an amazing TA.

Special schools are obviously a bit different - quite see how it would simply be impossible without assistance there! Glad you have some great ones. I often find TAs trained to work in special schools frequently have knowledge and input which is specialised and thus, very helpful.

Margo - I feel it is rather unfair to require somebody to do a key role of a teacher without the financial or career based rewards.

Bridge - my son wasn't in a special school. He was mainstream school and now in state grammar school. I refer you to my earlier post, they should be trained more and paid better. Or perhaps you also think money is wasted on teaching children with SN in mainstream?

DS would really struggle to attend school without the fantastic TA in his class.

Yes, I know, I was replying to Aeroflot on that particular post.

I have agreed, if you look above, that better pay and status and training is key.

I'm SLT in a large primary school with high levels of deprivation and 85% EAL.
When I do my daily wander and see the countless little phonics/reading/maths groups being led by experienced, wonderful TA's, I feel massively proud and make damn sure they know they're appreciated.

Try teaching 30 kids, ranging from zero English to Level 6 across the board with no TA and then tell me TA's "don't really aid students' learning," OP.

This is the most unreasonable post ever. I am a teacher. LSA's are worth their weight in gold.

I think it is more complex than that. But it is apparently what research shows.

So essentially, TAs are teaching, albeit in small groups, which is what is aiding the progress of the students. I don't feel that's particularly fair on any party in that scenario!

As a secondary maths teacher I find them invaluable (as long as you don't have to undo the mistakes they make!) in my lessons. Last year I taught a bottom set with 15 students, only one of which didn't have a SEN provision - but probably should have had one. Only one with behaviour issues the rest were all learning issues. I had 1 LSA with the class.

Without my amazing LSA in the room it would be me trying to support 15 students with zero confidence to put pen to paper most lessons even though the work was well within reach to them, they needed a lot of encouragement on an individual basis.

The best ones are great at my subject, the second best are the ones who aren't but aren't afraid to check before explaining something, the worst the know it all who tries to undermine what I have just said!

However I put a lot of effort into my working relationship with those who work with me and my classes, other teachers don't and don't find the LSA's as useful.

I agree it is far more complex than indicated by the research and I am reading it very much with a secondary hat on. Just the same, it seems TAs are most effective when essentially being used as teachers on a smaller scale, which as I said above (apologies for repeating myself) is not particularly fair on the TA herself or on the students.

How would you make it fairer?

I've worked as a teacher and as a TA
2 adults with 30 children are better than 1
If any research has indicated that this isn't the case I'm frankly amazed - and sceptical
Was it a controlled trial ie. comparing like with like, as obviously in education there are many other variables to consider?
You don't have to be a teacher to teach things
Parents for example usually do an amazing job with their DC
Home/school partnership should be promoted more too

So what do you suggest? my dd is severely dyslexic but otherwise fairly bright. She has an awful lot of one to one help in the classroom. I hope and pray this will continue into secondary school. If you have your own way my dd will get no help whatsoever and most likely leave school illiterate. You are so unreasonable as to be upsetting and im glad you're not her teacher. arrogant much?

I agree that they should have better pay, but that basic qualifications should be required. Given that they are working with the most vulnerable children, it's surely particularly important that they have good mastery of the core subjects. Since we took my DS out of school his level in Maths has shot up within a few months, and neither my husband nor I are good at Maths. I worked my arse off to get a B at O level years ago. But I can at least cover what he needs to do in Year 9, and just sitting down quietly, not being jostled and bullied, and able to go over something again if he doesn't understand it has worked wonders so far. Naively, this is what I imagined would be the case when they told me that he would have a TA.