Sharing tables in cafés

[Athenaviolet]

I'm genuinely not sure if IABU here.

I was in a cafe today. It was quite busy. Tbh if I'd known it was going to be busy I'd have gone elsewhere. My reason for going wasn't for the food & drink but for somewhere to sit to look up jobs on my phone, take notes etc. I wanted to sit for a couple of hours and it cost £6 for the privilege which I could do with not spending. There's tension in the house atm so don't feel comfortable there.

After I'd finished my sandwich but was still drinking my juice (in a transparent bottle so was obviously not finished) an older man came over to my table and asked if anyone was using the spare seats. I said no because that was the truth but it made me extremely uncomfortable him sitting next to me. I found it really hard to concentrate and left before I otherwise would have. (I have autistic traits so find 'social' situations difficult) I spent the next hour driving about in the rain.

Was he being unreasonable 'invading' my space? I was in his situation the other day and I just stood and waited for a free table. I think this is the polite thing to do.

Could I have said "please don't sit there while I'm still having my order"?

I'm very uncertain in these sort of social dilemmas. Imo when I'm paying (the extra) for a sit in meal part of what I'm paying for is 'the experience' of a table to sit in peace at. If I was just hungry I'd just go to a drive through.

They are not doing any harm and it is not my problem if anyone is shocked.

Indeed they are not doing any harm. And neither is our hypothetical male coffee-drinker who wants to sit at the only table where there are unoccupied seats. But you will let her veto his wish. I am confused.

That is fine, but you still don't have any right to be served in a cafe just because there is a free seat at somebody's table.

It's not somebody's table. It's a cafe table for more than one person with only one person at it. If there is nowhere else to sit, another customer may sit there.

I've never been to a cafe that's said that.

They exist.

Well, I'm glad never to have come across one. I think they sound like singularly unwelcoming places. Presumably their clientele is those with an aversion to being in proximity to a stranger; I'm very happy not to have had the misfortune to find myself in one surrounded by all these people being sour about the indignity of possibly having to sit close to another person.

It's not somebody's table. It's a cafe table for more than one person with only one person at it. If there is nowhere else to sit, another customer may sit there
Apprently this simple notion is too difficult for people on this thread to wrap their heads around Only. God knows why, thankfully it seems the majority can understand basic human interaction.

our society in UK is supportive of many different religions and increasingly multicultural
Indeed. But this does not mean blatantly discriminating against one group is allowed under law or that it should be tolerated.

To live happily we need to understand and have more tolerance.
But you are only talking about tolerance going one way. Where is the understanding that a man just wants to sit in a seat and have a cup of coffee? Where is the tolerance towards him and acceptance that in his culture this is totally normal?

Opposing a Muslim lady's religious beliefs about contact with men- in a public cafe while she is trying to enjoy her drink in peace- is unkind and not a gentlemanly thing to do.
He is not opposing her beliefs. He is not making her say a Hail Mary or remove a head covering. She can still enjoy her drink in peace as she is not being forced to have any contact with the man or tp interact with him. Sitting at the same table means she is in no closer proximity to him than she would be walking down a busy street, or standing in a queue, or sitting a bus.
you will of course agree that it is unladylike and unkind to deny a fellow human being the chance to sit down in an empty seat because a lady puts the comfort of others before her own.

You put her in a difficult and embarrassing position.
If your beliefs predicate that you cannot come into contact with 50% of the population, then life is going to be difficult by that very fact. THe man is not putting her in a difficult position - he is having a cup of coffee. If the woman ascribes something else to that act, then the man cannot be responsible for that.

A man cannot change his sex and to suggest that the any man venturing out into society puts women in a difficult and embarrassing situation is akin to believing that he should just stay at home in the first place, because for you the mere fact of his existence is going to be difficult and embarrassing for women. See how unreasonable that is?

Indeed they are not doing any harm. And neither is our hypothetical male coffee-drinker who wants to sit at the only table where there are unoccupied seats. But you will let her veto his wish. I am confused

They are not doing any harm because they are not invading anybody's space. In contrast our hypothetical male coffee-drinker is trying to sit at a table where he is not welcome and the occupant(s) of that table are not happy and are complaining to me. He is therefore being a nuisance because he doesn't see why he can't sit on any chair. In our cafe the tables do not have to be shared so he is breaching policy and disturbing other customers. If he stayed out of their personal space or found someone happy to share a table with him, everything would be fine. Alternatively he can wait for his own table. He doesn't have automatic right to sit anywhere.

IT IS NOT PERSONAL SPACE, IT IS THE OTHER CHAIR AT A TABLE FOR TWO.

Yes, I'm shouting. I can't think of what else to do.

Getting a seat has nothing to do with one's right to be served in a cafe.
Mainly because there is not such thing as a right to service.
But, if the cafe sell you a beverage that is designed to be "eaten in", then they have entered into a contract with you. They have offered goods to be consumed on the premises and you have paid for this service.
It would be unreasonable of the cafe to refuse to let you sit in an empty seat basically because another person at the table decided they didn't like the look of you - whether this is because you are male/black/Jewish/have Downs Syndrome etc.
Unreasonable and bad for business to treat customers so rudely.
There is no "first come to a table means you have a power of veto over anyone else".

It's not somebody's table

Yes, it is somebody's table. It is the cafe owner's table.

If the cafe owner thinks that their business will function better if each party of people has their own table, that is perfectly legal.

Equally some restaurants function like Wagamama and you must share a table.

The business owner can choose how to run their business. There is no law stating that all spare chairs in a cafe must be used.

Realistically, many people don't mind sharing and many cafe's aren't busy. However, there is nothing intrinsically right or wrong about expecting customers to share or not share tables. It is up to the cafe owner to decide how to run their business.

No Jaleh - the person being a nuisance is the female complaining because she doesn't want a man sitting at her table.
She is being rude and trying to bully and harass him.
She is the one disturbing other customers
She should be the one to move and leave the man in peace.

It's not somebody's table. It's a cafe table for more than one person with only one person at it. If there is nowhere else to sit, another customer may sit there
Apprently this simple notion is too difficult for people on this thread to wrap their heads around Only. God knows why, thankfully it seems the majority can understand basic human interaction.

I think you will find that if you take the line that the table has no owner and try to remove it from the restaurant, the police may be called.

merry, that's just facetious and you know it.

But, if the cafe sell you a beverage that is designed to be "eaten in", then they have entered into a contract with you. They have offered goods to be consumed on the premises and you have paid for this service.

I agree with this - if a cafe sells you food or drinks to 'eat in', they should provide you with somewhere to eat it - but then I don't buy food or drink in a cafe unless I am sure that I have somewhere to sit.

I'm not sure what the religious issue is here? If a cafe has a policy allowing people to refuse to share their table, then anyone can take advantage of this for whatever reason.

In a busy cafe I wonder whether the staff should be responsible for checking seating availability before selling or whether it's the customer's responsibility? Personally I tend to glance around and make sure there's a table free before I buy something. I'm not convinced about the cafe being contractually obliged to seat you. I suspect that a restaurant would be obliged but not a cafe during a busy period.

If a religious woman has chosen to use a cafe then I don't think that she can expect to be given special treatment. Everyone has the right to refuse to share or no one does.

No more facetious than "Apprently this simple notion is too difficult for people on this thread to wrap their heads around".

Yeah, it is more facetious, merry. I'd say the comment you quote is slightly rude. It's different.

The business owner can choose how to run their business.

No, they cannot. In this instance the cafe owner must abide by food hygeine standards and health and safety standards, whether or not he wants to. He must also pay his staff the NMW and ensure the premises are properly insured. He has to abide by local regulations governing opening hours and apply for a licence if he wishes to sell alcohol. And he cannot operate a policy of active discrimination

How is it discrimination to allow people to refuse to share their table? If everyone has that right then their rationale cannot be questioned.

In this instance the cafe owner must abide by food hygeine standards and health and safety standards, whether or not he wants to. He must also pay his staff the NMW and ensure the premises are properly insured. He has to abide by local regulations governing opening hours and apply for a licence if he wishes to sell alcohol. And he cannot operate a policy of active discrimination

Absolutely, but the business owner does not have to force customers to share tables.

Yeah, it is more facetious, merry. I'd say the comment you quote is slightly rude. It's different.

I apologise if I came across as rude. However, there is absolutely no law that states that a cafe must serve a customer just because there are free chairs in the cafe.

I don't buy food or drink in a cafe unless I am sure that I have somewhere to sit.

That's a sensible rule of thumb, and lots would do the same - including me. However, if I see an empty seat, then I will buy my snack, and go and sit in that seat - having checked that it is not temporarily vacated. And if the other occupants of that table would prefer not have my presence, then frankly that is neither here nor there, because cafes are public spaces where one does not go in the expectation of splendid isolation. Other customers are to be expected in a cafe - whether queueing at the counter, sitting at a nearby table or even at the same table. It is what you expect and should not be a surprise.

A man cannot change his sex and to suggest that the any man venturing out into society puts women in a difficult and embarrassing situation is akin to believing that he should just stay at home in the first place, because for you the mere fact of his existence is going to be difficult and embarrassing for women

You misunderstand me. Of course she will have many interactions with men in busy public places, this is unavoidable and part of life. But she should not have to share her small cafe table against her will. She came into cafe, waited for a vacant table, is having a nice private sit down with her drink. There is no need for him to sit at her table in close proximity to her. Of course he can have his coffee, or sit nearby, or wait for a vacant seat. But there is no need for him to push into her personal space and insist on sharing her table when she says no. It is unkind and unnecessary of him. To her it is too intimate sharing a table. She was there first and wants her privacy to finish her drink and food. He will not suffer waiting for 5 minutes. It was chance there was an unoccupied seat at all, what would he do if all seats were taken? A kind, respectful person will be sensitive and patient if a person says no. I would never sit at somebody's table in a cafe if they said no. Doesn't matter to me if they are male or female or why they prefer not sharing.

the business owner does not have to force customers to share tables.

Nobody said he did. What is being said is that a woman does not have the right to demand a man be removed from a table provided for customers just because he is a man. Just as she would not have the right to demand a person with ASD be removed from her presence. Becuase that is discrimination.

The seat is her personal space. The table isn't and you cannot stop a man sitting on the unoccupied chair citing his gender as the reason.