Sharing tables in cafés

[Athenaviolet]

I'm genuinely not sure if IABU here.

I was in a cafe today. It was quite busy. Tbh if I'd known it was going to be busy I'd have gone elsewhere. My reason for going wasn't for the food & drink but for somewhere to sit to look up jobs on my phone, take notes etc. I wanted to sit for a couple of hours and it cost £6 for the privilege which I could do with not spending. There's tension in the house atm so don't feel comfortable there.

After I'd finished my sandwich but was still drinking my juice (in a transparent bottle so was obviously not finished) an older man came over to my table and asked if anyone was using the spare seats. I said no because that was the truth but it made me extremely uncomfortable him sitting next to me. I found it really hard to concentrate and left before I otherwise would have. (I have autistic traits so find 'social' situations difficult) I spent the next hour driving about in the rain.

Was he being unreasonable 'invading' my space? I was in his situation the other day and I just stood and waited for a free table. I think this is the polite thing to do.

Could I have said "please don't sit there while I'm still having my order"?

I'm very uncertain in these sort of social dilemmas. Imo when I'm paying (the extra) for a sit in meal part of what I'm paying for is 'the experience' of a table to sit in peace at. If I was just hungry I'd just go to a drive through.

Private, it must be the Eighteenth-Century-Mores police, armed not with tear gas or mace but with smelling salts in case a man passes too near and a lady gets a fit of the vapours.

Me too, Private. What a fuss.

For one thing there is no such thing as a man's table - not in this country

Andrew in this context 'man's table' meant 'a table a man is sitting at' not a table exclusively for men. I used example of a man sitting at a table to avoid confusion about gender discrimination. Of course table doesn't belong to him. Why is it offensive that he doesn't want to share the table he is sitting at? What is wrong with a person wanting to eat alone? Should we discriminate against those who like to visit cafes alone and say sitting alone is not allowed? Many people don't like to share cafe table with strangers. Lots of cafes understand this preference for your own table i actually don't know any cafes where they tell the customers they must share tables. You don't just pay for the seat you pay for a nice experience. It's not very nice to sit opposite a stranger or next to a stranger when you're eating even when he/she doesn't talk or stare. Perhaps you don't mind sharing Andrew but lots of people do mind. So if you can't find someone who is happy to share, you must wait. Do you have physical problems that make it painful to stand up to wait?

If I were a director of Caffe Nero or Starbucks and I read this chain I would be emailing the manager of every branch reminding them that they must not allow customers to refuse to share on a gender, or religious, or "cultural basis*
Do Cafe Nero and Starbucks force their customers to share tables? Really? No I don't believe big chains would force customers to share if they prefer not to. A customer does not have to give any reason at all why they don't want to share.

Nobody particularly enjoys sharing tables, one supposes (especially small ones, where KNEES COULD TOUCH, FLIIIP), but if there is no alternative, just get on with it surely

Of course the sensible alternative is avoid busy cafes or make sure you have a table before ordering, but that is a whole other can of worms...

A café is offering its seats to the public. Unless there is a sign that says you can't sit at an occupied table without permission it is a breach of your contract with the café for them to prevent you from doing so
No
The cafe cannot force customers to share tables. The table is occupied if one person is sitting at it and that person can choose to share or not share. It is nothing to do with cafe unless they are a rare place that allocates customers to specific seats on communal tables and i have never heard of a place that does that!

If yours is one of the big chains I hope the management are reading because they will be appalled at the risk of embarrassing litigation.

No they wouldn't, stop being so silly.

I wouldn't bet on it, you know. I could just see on of the relevant interest groups deciding to take a test case against one of the big chains. After all, a B&B has been taken to court for turning someone away on the grounds of sexuality.

Of course the sensible alternative is avoid busy cafes
No the sensible alternative is to sit in an unoccupied chair rather than leaving half the cafe empty.

Man again says no but you ignore him so man complains to staff and you are told to move.

Jaleh, why in that situation do you take the line that the wishes of the customer hogging a table for four take precedence over the wishes of the second customer who just wants to sit down and eat and drink whilst his food and coffee are hot? Suppose that the table hogger sits there for three hours during your busiest period nursing one drink and obstinately complaining every time someone tries to sit at the table, are you still going to say his wishes take precedence?

they are a rare place that allocates customers to specific seats on communal tables and i have never heard of a place that does that!

Some restaurants do this, but customers are usually seated at a bar or refectory type table, e.g. Wagamama.

Andrew in this context 'man's table' meant 'a table a man is sitting at' not a table exclusively for men.

Yes, understood.

I don't know of any cafe where they don't expect people to share tables at busy times.

This morning I had a coffee and a bite to eat (I can't resist an almond croissant!) at Nero in my local shopping centre. On my own at a table with three chairs. A black couple approached the table - I could not see if there were any other seats free, it was busy - and of course I drew my coffee and plate nearer to make space on the table.

Are you really, really saying that if that had been your cafe and I had said "Sorry, I'm not comfortable sharing with black people" you would have said they should wait for another table?

You see; that's how the OP said she felt, except it was gender, not race. And, alas, there are still white people who do, genuinely, feel uncomfortable about sharing a table with black people. But we don't condone it and say we must be "culturally sensitive" about that, do we? We hope that such ignorant attitudes will diem out as people become more enlightened.

The same should apply to a Muslim woman who does not want a harmless, quiet peaceful man sitting at the same table because he is male. Don't be culturally sensitive to such ignorance. She may not be able to help it; she may have been brought up that way, as many racist white people were. But call it what it is: unacceptable.

After all, a B&B has been taken to court for turning someone away on the grounds of sexuality.

But Jaleh isn't turning away customers on anything other than the grounds that the cafe is full.

No the sensible alternative is to sit in an unoccupied chair rather than leaving half the cafe empty.

Why on earth would you pay over the odds to sit at a table in a cafe and stand around with a tray or share it if it makes you or the other occupant uncomfortable? It's as though there is an alternative universe of people who are condemned to use cafes in uncomfortable situations.

You see; that's how the OP said she felt, except it was gender, not race. And, alas, there are still white people who do, genuinely, feel uncomfortable about sharing a table with black people. But we don't condone it and say we must be "culturally sensitive" about that, do we? We hope that such ignorant attitudes will diem out as people become more enlightened.

+1. By the bucketload.

If I were to sit quietly at a table also occupied by someone who objects, without cause (i.e. just because I'm a man), to my being there, you would have to remove me by force. And I wouldn't go quietly. You see, I cannot tolerate intolerance. And bigotry.

Are you really, really saying that if that had been your cafe and I had said "Sorry, I'm not comfortable sharing with black people" you would have said they should wait for another table?

From what I have read, Jaleh wouldn't force you to share the table, but might evict you for making offensive comments.

"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."

Could also be applied to the idea that a cafe owner does not have to force customers to share tables.

I think many people on this thread are being professionally offended, but not Jaleh.

Why on earth would you pay over the odds to sit at a table in a cafe and stand around with a tray or share it if it makes you or the other occupant uncomfortable?

Because its a cafe and Im hungry/in a rush/its near my work/i dont have a fucking social anixety problem?

I used to live in London. Obviously there was very little chance of keeping a table to oneself for any length of time there. I now live in Devon, and in busy times tables are shared here too. I have never been anywhere in the UK or abroad where table sharing in cafes or equivalent doesn't happen in busy times.

OP, you didn't pay £6 for only a few minutes at a table on your own. You paid £6 for food and drink. Luckily for you, you got a few minutes alone thrown in.

I'm sorry you were uncomfortable, I really am, but the harsh reality is that if you want to guarantee time alone you'll have to go to a restaurant and pay more.

merrymouse Unfortunately Jaleh does not seem to regard Sorry, I'm not comfortable sharing with a man as an offensive comment worthy of eviction. She seems to think it should be regarded with "cultural sensitivity".

Andrew, I think you are confusing skin colour with cultural/religious beliefs!

Being 'culturally sensitive' has nothing to do with skin-colour. It means understanding other cultures have different views and belief-systems. I realise you don't know much about Islam or rules women may follow. Some Muslim women (not all) have close contact only with men who are their immediate family, this is part of the religion, many are raised this way. A Muslim women who doesn't wish to share her table with you for 'cultural reasons' is not being rude or unkind, she is not looking down on you for being male. It is not she is 'ignorant' or 'doesn't know better' (in fact it is quite offensive you assume this). She just has different views to you about what is appropriate behaviour with male strangers. She is not comfortable to share her small table with you and allow you to sit physically close to her because this is not acceptable in her culture/religion. She may also fear her family will see her dining with a male stranger. A man who is culturally sensitive will be respectful of her beliefs, he will not want her to feel upset. He will not force his company on her at a cafe table. This is what i mean by being respectful. Of course you have every right to eat your almond croissant in comfort but i think it's not fair to force her to share her table when she said no.

I realise you don't know much about Islam or rules women may follow.

How condescending.

Jaleh, it's not a case of 'confusing' skin colour with anything; posters are trying to draw analogies.

I think you are confusing skin colour with cultural/religious beliefs!

OK so in the religion I follow its forbidden to share tables with people of a different race (and who are you to prove otherwise or judge me?). Are you going to be culturally/religiously insensitive to me by not letting me kick someone off 'my' table because they are black??

All right Jaleh if the couple were Muslim and I had said I'm not comfortable sharing with Muslims - which some non-Muslim people are not - how would that sound to you?

All prejudices of this kind are a form of ignorance - even if you cannot blame the individual concerned. They should not be passed off as "cultural" - they should be opposed, resisted, marginalised and I hope one day relegated into history.

Of course that will involve discomfort for some people. When the outward forms of apartheid ended there were many white South Africans who were genuinely uncomfortable sharing a park-bench or a bus or a bank queue with black people and you know what? They had to get over it.

You still haven't said whether such a Muslim woman has to put up with much closer proximity on the bus.

I accept that a considerate person would not wish to hurt another. But that must go both ways. Just as you feel it would be culturally insensitive for a man to sit at the same table as a Muslim woman, then surely you must accept that a non Muslim man may be equally upset not to be allowed to sit in an empty seat because there are women at the table? That he may feel harassed? Why do his feelings and cultural upbringing mean he can be treated like a second class citizen?