Sharing tables in cafés

[Athenaviolet]

I'm genuinely not sure if IABU here.

I was in a cafe today. It was quite busy. Tbh if I'd known it was going to be busy I'd have gone elsewhere. My reason for going wasn't for the food & drink but for somewhere to sit to look up jobs on my phone, take notes etc. I wanted to sit for a couple of hours and it cost £6 for the privilege which I could do with not spending. There's tension in the house atm so don't feel comfortable there.

After I'd finished my sandwich but was still drinking my juice (in a transparent bottle so was obviously not finished) an older man came over to my table and asked if anyone was using the spare seats. I said no because that was the truth but it made me extremely uncomfortable him sitting next to me. I found it really hard to concentrate and left before I otherwise would have. (I have autistic traits so find 'social' situations difficult) I spent the next hour driving about in the rain.

Was he being unreasonable 'invading' my space? I was in his situation the other day and I just stood and waited for a free table. I think this is the polite thing to do.

Could I have said "please don't sit there while I'm still having my order"?

I'm very uncertain in these sort of social dilemmas. Imo when I'm paying (the extra) for a sit in meal part of what I'm paying for is 'the experience' of a table to sit in peace at. If I was just hungry I'd just go to a drive through.

Wow, this thread got intense.

I will get manager or security and you will be told to leave cafe
What kind of cafe do you work in that has secruity??

Andrew and Ilovesooti I'm not a law-expert so i don't know about legalities of women-only seating areas I just know they exist. But I'm thinking there must be a legal loophole (or these many businesses would have been shut-down long ago). Many shisha-cafes and restaurants in my area seat all-men groups away from all-women groups. Can you understand at all why some men and women prefer this to mixed seating? If you are from a culture where gender segregation is normal you'll likely feel more comfortable with your own gender. It is not about 'pandering to customer's prejudices' it's about creation of an environment for people to feel safe, dignified, able to relax, with similarities to what they are used to. We are lucky UK is such a diverse multicultural place but i think there is widespread lack of understanding for different cultures. If you judge everything by the worldview of one culture only, your outlook on life becomes very narrow and judgemental. What you view as 'discrimination against men' another man views as 'respect for women'. Neither of you are right or wrong. You think it's ok to share a woman's table when she says no, but in another culture this is very disrespectful behaviour. Is her culture less valid than yours? Better I think to be guided by how a person feels instead of your own rigid concept of what is 'right'.

For example Andrew you mention Anywhere where you might be in a state of undress is different and may separate the genders
Women who wear hijab cannot show their hair in public, so state of undress means anywhere hair must be uncovered like a swim-pool, gym, hair-salon. Should women in hijab be excluded from using these places altogether? Isn't this discrimination of a different kind, against a minority ethnic group?

Ladies-only nighttime buses are very popular in my city with women of all cultures (and we keep all our clothes on so it's not about modesty). Do you see ladies-only buses as discriminating against men? What about ladies-only waiting room at the train station, there is no room just for men but I assume it's legal as National Rail provides.

Only I don't see a problem with any of that if the same courtesy is extended to the rest of the population.

I think the important point is using her table after she said no to you

If they would stop you from using his table after he has said no to you there is no problem. Whether or not a cafe thinks it is reasonable for customers to share tables at busy times will depend on the cafe.

If the café would tell a woman to leave for the same reason as a man - i.e. because another customer didn't want to share with them for whatever reason - it's not discrimination and not against the law.

What you view as 'discrimination against men' another man views as 'respect for women'. Neither of you are right or wrong.

Someone arguing 'respect for women' is, in the eyes of the law, 'wrong'. Non-discrimination on the grounds of gender is a right/protection enshrined in law, whereas 'respect for women' isn't.

Whatever you think of the legality of gender separation in different cultures, it is not discrimination to offer the same service to everybody.

The key is that Jaleh says needs of this population when she means preferences of some of this population - and thinks that if a customer finds the presence of another customer offensive it must therefore be offensive. Sitting at a table where there is another customer drinking coffee and reading is not offensive to that other customer unless it is combined with some actually offensive behaviour.

I don't understand your last post, merry, sorry.

To clear up the confusion, the cafe I work in does NOT have separate seating areas or any special rules about men sitting with women. It is all mixed seating and up to customers where they sit. But we have a policy that you cannot share another customer's table if he/she says no. You can have a table to yourself if this is what you want and when it's busy you wait. Anyone forcing himself/herself onto a table that is not vacant will be asked to move/leave if person sitting there says no to sharing. This to me is a very sensible rule. It means everyone can feel comfortable and not hassled. In my experience of working there I have never been in situation where a man complains about a woman sitting uninvited at his table, tends to be women complaining about men doing this. But if it did happen we would treat it the same way and she would be asked to move/leave.

Some people just prefer not to share a table and would rather go to a cafe where it is not customary for people to share tables. There is no law saying that customers entering an establishment defined as a cafe must have access to seats on occupied tables.

The customer's reasons for preferring not to share are their own. No offence occurs until somebody insists on sharing an already occupied table.

Jaleh

There are probably many businesses providing men- or women-only options and chancing it. The shisha-cafes and restaurants probably find that it suits all their customers, there are no complaints, so they get away with it, everyone is happy. A cafe is different. If yours is one of the big chains I hope the management are reading because they will be appalled at the risk of embarrassing litigation.

The boundaries here are set by laws which apply to us all and override cultural preferences. As I said upthread a Muslim woman may have to sit very close to a man on a bus. On the coaches where standing is not allowed - if she is the last one on she may well have no choice: sit next to a man or get off. Rightly or wrongly the law here has preferred equal access to all but a few highly specialised facilities, regardless of gender, to any so-called cultural considerations.

I should add that I know of no ladies-only waiting room at any NR station - if I found one and I was having to wait outside in the cold I would most certainly object.

I don't understand your last post, merry, sorry.

I think you are getting sidetracked by the rights and wrongs of gender separation for cultural reasons.

There is no discrimination in Jaleh's cafe as all customers are allow to occupy a private table, not just women.

Rightly or wrongly the law here has preferred equal access to all but a few highly specialised facilities, regardless of gender, to any so-called cultural considerations.

However, it doesn't force people to share tables.

You might have a point if a party of men were refused access because they would be sitting near women at a different table, but that isn't the case here.

Jaleh If I come to your cafe, sit at an empty table for four, and say I object to sharing will you turn away three customers or tell them to wait?

What if I say I have a cultural objection to sharing with women [which i don't!]?

Or a cultural objection to sharing with Muslims [which I also don't]?

You can call prejudice "cultural preference" but it is still prejudice. You can give it free rein in your own home. In the public sphere - which includes a cafe serving the public - equal access trumps prejudice.

Ah, I see. But my point was that until the legal implications of what she was talking about were floated and she changed tack, Jaleh was arguing about 'cultural sensitivity' – which, in her context, was women not wanting to sit with men.

Sitting at a table where there is another customer drinking coffee and reading is not offensive to that other customer unless it is combined with some actually offensive behaviour

Andrew in my cafe every customer has a right to not share their table if they don't want to. We don't tell customers what they can or cannot find offensive. Imagine you take your food and sit at occupied table (lets say it's a man's table to avoid gender argument) and the man says 'please don't sit at my table'. You ask why. Man says 'I'd rather sit alone' or 'i'm waiting for friends' it doesn't really matter what his reason, fact is he has said no to you joining him. You say 'but the seat is unoccupied and I want to sit and eat and read my book because there's a queue for tables'. Man again says no but you ignore him so man complains to staff and you are told to move. Why do you think it's not offensive to ignore him when he says 'no' to you? Perhaps man waited in queue for a vacant table and now is enjoying his solitude and you are being a nuisance by denying him this solitary table he has waited patiently for. Whether it has 2, 3 or 4 seats, he can choose to eat alone. It's not my place to judge whether he is justified to find you offensive or not.

Jaleh If I come to your cafe, sit at an empty table for four, and say I object to sharing will you turn away three customers or tell them to wait?
Andrew if you don't want to share your 4-person table that is up to you. I may ask if I can take your un-used chairs (if we are short of chairs) but I will ask first, you might be waiting for people. Most customers wait for vacant tables but if they ask to sit at yours you can say no and yes I will tell them to move/wait if they ignore you. We never allocate the seats we just let everyone get on with it and only intervene when somebody is unhappy.

What if I say I have a cultural objection to sharing with women [which i don't!]?
I will tell you you don't have to share your table with anyone. I won't comment on your preferences/objections though I might pretend to not hear you! If you are loudly saying offensive things then we will ask you to leave.

If yours is one of the big chains I hope the management are reading because they will be appalled at the risk of embarrassing litigation.

No they wouldn't, stop being so silly.

No Jaleh For one thing there is no such thing as a man's table - not in this country. Not allowed. If it goes on by sufferance where all the customers prefer it, fine, a lot of things go on which should not but that does not make them right. In an ordinary cafe a man's table is as preposterous as a black table or a Muslim or a Jewish or a straight table.

For another it's not his table. It's his seat.

It is he who is being offensive in expecting to have a table, rather than just a place to himself. If you prefer to put off inoffensive customers in preference to offensive ones, and you really and truly do so on a non-gender and non "cultural' (= racist) basis, well, fine, but that's not what you said when you first weighed in, it was all about Muslim "cultural preferences" (that is, discriminatory attitudes).

Ted If I were a director of Caffe Nero or Starbucks and I read this chain I would be emailing the manager of every branch reminding them that they must not allow customers to refuse to share on a gender, or religious, or "cultural* basis - the risk of litigation may be low but the consequences in terms of publicity if it happened would be dreadful.

I have to say that if it was a Muslim woman who did not want to share with a man I would like to see the Guardianistas scratching their arses on the horns of the dilemma

Jaleh what youre saying boils down to, you encourage gender segregation if it makes people feel more 'culturally comfortable'

merrymouse - No offence occurs until somebody insists on sharing an already occupied table. I don't know where your view of criminality comes from, but if you think it;s a crime to sit at a table in a café,

I'm minded to recall Stephen Fry's quote on the causing of offence:
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."

A café is offering its seats to the public. Unless there is a sign that says you can't sit at an occupied table without permission it is a breach of your contract with the café for them to prevent you from doing so. If someone is offended because the part of the cosmos that my body occupies happens to be a few feet away from them, so what?

A café is offering its seats to the public. Unless there is a sign that says you can't sit at an occupied table without permission it is a breach of your contract with the café for them to prevent you from doing so.

No - cafes do not have to allow customers to sit at occupied tables. Potentially they shouldn't sell food and drinks when there are no free tables, but they can choose not to serve customers along as they aren't discriminating.

To quote TedandLola, stop being so silly.

And in this case the reason they would not be serving customers would be that there are no free tables.