Sharing tables in cafés

[Athenaviolet]

I'm genuinely not sure if IABU here.

I was in a cafe today. It was quite busy. Tbh if I'd known it was going to be busy I'd have gone elsewhere. My reason for going wasn't for the food & drink but for somewhere to sit to look up jobs on my phone, take notes etc. I wanted to sit for a couple of hours and it cost £6 for the privilege which I could do with not spending. There's tension in the house atm so don't feel comfortable there.

After I'd finished my sandwich but was still drinking my juice (in a transparent bottle so was obviously not finished) an older man came over to my table and asked if anyone was using the spare seats. I said no because that was the truth but it made me extremely uncomfortable him sitting next to me. I found it really hard to concentrate and left before I otherwise would have. (I have autistic traits so find 'social' situations difficult) I spent the next hour driving about in the rain.

Was he being unreasonable 'invading' my space? I was in his situation the other day and I just stood and waited for a free table. I think this is the polite thing to do.

Could I have said "please don't sit there while I'm still having my order"?

I'm very uncertain in these sort of social dilemmas. Imo when I'm paying (the extra) for a sit in meal part of what I'm paying for is 'the experience' of a table to sit in peace at. If I was just hungry I'd just go to a drive through.

Unless jaleh would force men or women to share with each other or men to share with women, how is there discrimination?

If she refuses to allow a customer to be seated because he's male that is certainly discrimination.

merrymouse - if the female customer objects to a male customer sitting at her table just because he is male, and Jaleh supports her in that, there is discrimination.

I can't see why that's a difficult concept to grasp.

I think she is saying that she would allow any customer to refuse to share, and giving an example of why somebody might not want to share.

Presumably she would do this because as much as she is selling coffee and cake, she is selling the experience of sitting in a cafe.

It's a commercial decision - do you make more money by encouraging sharing and increasing sales volume, or do you then lose regular customers who value privacy? As long as you treat all customers equally, I don't think it's discrimination.

Certainly, but a man drinking his coffee and not trying to interact with her is not a rational reason not to feel safe
But why is he judging whether her feelings are rational or not? If she feels unsafe this is how she feels. If she tells him to move away and he says no, he is disrespectful because she had table first. A cafe is not like train or public waiting-room when it's ok to sit anywhere. People don't like to feel crowded and uncomfortable in a cafe they are there to have a nice time.

One of these days a male customer will be so pissed off at such humiliation
Andrew why will the male customer feel humiliated at all? If you sit at a lady's table and she asks you to move and you say no and she complains to me, I will ask you (very politely and quietly) to move. I will try to find you a seat on another table if you like, but if nobody wants to share table with you will need to wait for vacant table. If you still refuse to move from her table, I will get manager or security and you will be told to leave cafe, but there is never a need to escalate to that. So no humiliation.

merrymouse the Equality Act is about equality of opportunity not about trading people equally. How is it not discrimination to tell a man to move because he's male?

And as I said Jaleh with every post it's evident that you simply don't care if you breach the law.

She isn't telling somebody to move because they are male, she is telling somebody to move because in her cafe the policy is that you don't have to allow other people to share your table.

Why they might not want to do this is their business. It is only discrimination if she would force e.g. two men to share.

Equally, when I buy eggs from the supermarket, they are selling me eggs. Why I want eggs and what I do with them is my business.

I will try to find you a seat on another table if you like, but if nobody wants to share table with you will need to wait for vacant table.

She is not saying that she will force other people to share. Perhaps, having this policy, she shouldn't be selling food and drinks without alerting customers to the fact that they might have to wait for a table, but from what she says there isn't discrimination.

So a gay couple asked to leave a B&B because other guests have complained about them isn't being discriminated against? A woman asked to leave a golf club because the other golfers have complained about a woman using the course isn't discriminated against? A black man asked to get off a bus because the white people on it don't want to share it with him isn't being discriminated against?

I think you'd better look up discrimination in a dictionary. And then apply it to your life.

To treat me as a potential harasser and an undesirable because I am male is discriminatory and to ask me to leave is to humiliate me.

Sure there are worse forms of discrimination in the fields of employment and housing. But it won't do. You are letting your customers lead you to act unlawfully. Once upon a time a woman on her own could not get served in a pub because male customers did not like it. This is the same thing and one fine day you will come expensively unstuck.

No.

The gay couple were not being offered what other guests were being offered because of their sexuality.

In this case the offer is that cafe owners will ensure that you have a private table, if that is your wish. As long as this offer is made to all customers, there is no discrimination. Whether you want a private table for religious reasons, because you are working, or because you are a super villain who wants to plan world domination in peace and quiet is not relevant.

Collaborate I still don't see why you link it to anti-gay B&B, can you explain? We are talking about gender not sexuality. If we can legally have women-only swim sessions and women-only nighttime buses, why can't cafes have women-only seating areas if there's a demand? I go to a gym that caters for women only, also my local beauty-salon does not allow men inside even to waiting areas, you have to be buzzed in and they look at you through the CCTV before door unlocks. Yes they are catering to only one gender but I'm sure all these places cannot be breaking the law? A clothes shop does not allow men in fitting-room but this too is normal and legal. If a man preferred to try on ladies' clothes in ladies' fitting-room is shop breaking law if they tell him to only use mens' fitting-room?

In cafe where I work we expect customers not to upset each other by sitting at tables where they are not welcome. If a man complained another man had forced onto his table and will not leave, we will tell the 2nd man to move and wait for vacant table. We don't have a rule that we only move people who are bothering opposite sex, we will move anyone who is being a nuisance to another customer. Anyone can complain, so far I have only had women complaining about men joining them uninvited.

I asked you to consider how uncomfortable you would feel if someone was acting as you would act, but based on skin colour. I assume you would find such behaviour abhorrent
Yes of course I find that abhorrent. But skin colour has nothing to do with gender. What you are suggesting is altogether a very very different thing and irrelevant to current discussion. In daily life in UK we have women-only and men-only places (toilets, changing-rooms, gyms, nighttime buses etc) yet you feel this is not gender discrimination? Sorry Collaborate I just can't see the point you are making.

But skin colour has nothing to do with gender. What you are suggesting is altogether a very very different thing and irrelevant to current discussion.

It's simply another reason for discrimination. Thankfully both are illegal. If you can't see the difference between toilets and a café table, there's no hope of you.

of for

She isn't telling somebody to move because they are male, she is telling somebody to move because in her cafe the policy is that you don't have to allow other people to share your table

Exactly this. We don't force any customers to share tables. You will not be asked to move 'because you are a man' you will be asked to move because a customer has complained you are being a nuisance. If nobody wants to share their table with you, you must wait for a vacant table or leave.

How sad that anyone just sitting at a table minding their own business can be considered to be a nuisance or harassing.
I would give any such establishment operating such a bigoted policy a huge body swerve.
It is insulting to treat men in this way and Jakehs original posts make it clear this is an anti male policy based on the frankly crazy assumption that women are justified in considering the mere presence of a man to be harassment.

Jaleh Anywhere where you might be in a state of undress is different and may separate the genders.

Your bus and swimming sessions are chancing it! A women only session at the pool may be lawful - it depends when. Not at the weekend when men may want to swim with their families. One London Borough which tried to keep 9.00 to 12.00 Sunday for women and children under ten had to back off after threats of legal action.

why can't cafes have women-only seating areas if there's a demand?

Because it's illegal (barring a few special cases and this is not one of them) to pander to your customers' prejudices - even if they are dressed up as religion.

I note that Muslim women may have to put up with a man sitting much closer to them on a bus or a train!

Incidentally if your business ever gets sued the claim can be made against you personally too. And it won't help you to say that you were only obeying orders.

I suggest Jaleh that you and your employer source some equality training pretty quickly if you want to stay on business.

Jaleh - if I found your discriminatory attitude made me uncomfortable, would you remove yourself from the café for me?

I agree that if you want to offer a service exclusively to a particular group you have to be able to show that it is necessary to exclude others - and based on legislation I think it would be tricky to show that a cafe needed women only tables.

However, it isn't discriminatory to allow all customers to occupy a private table on a first come first served basis - which seems to be what Jaleh is describing in her cafe.

It's discriminatory to ask men to move or leave but not women.

merry, Jaleh in facts starts out talking about religious sensibilities around gender, and only after people question her starts trying to make out that it's not about men and women or religion.

No, Jaleh starts out explaining that it is normal for customers to sit alone at tables and not share. Also very normal to wait for the table at busy times of day. More older customers share than younger so I'm thinking it's an age thing?

She then just gives an example of a time when somebody did not want to share a table and was assisted by the cafe staff. You might not like the reason that they did not want to share, but unless this customer was given special treatment there is no discrimination.

Here you go, merry, from Jalah: 'But in areas with large Muslim population the cafes will be tending to cater to the cultural needs of this population. You think you are being inoffensive yes but you are sitting very close to her and using her table after she said no to you. So she feels harassed and complains ... in our cafe staff will sympathise with her and we will ask you to move or leave because she had the table first.'

and

'We all need to be respectful to each other and understand cultural differences'