Sharing tables in cafés

[Athenaviolet]

I'm genuinely not sure if IABU here.

I was in a cafe today. It was quite busy. Tbh if I'd known it was going to be busy I'd have gone elsewhere. My reason for going wasn't for the food & drink but for somewhere to sit to look up jobs on my phone, take notes etc. I wanted to sit for a couple of hours and it cost £6 for the privilege which I could do with not spending. There's tension in the house atm so don't feel comfortable there.

After I'd finished my sandwich but was still drinking my juice (in a transparent bottle so was obviously not finished) an older man came over to my table and asked if anyone was using the spare seats. I said no because that was the truth but it made me extremely uncomfortable him sitting next to me. I found it really hard to concentrate and left before I otherwise would have. (I have autistic traits so find 'social' situations difficult) I spent the next hour driving about in the rain.

Was he being unreasonable 'invading' my space? I was in his situation the other day and I just stood and waited for a free table. I think this is the polite thing to do.

Could I have said "please don't sit there while I'm still having my order"?

I'm very uncertain in these sort of social dilemmas. Imo when I'm paying (the extra) for a sit in meal part of what I'm paying for is 'the experience' of a table to sit in peace at. If I was just hungry I'd just go to a drive through.

The cafe I used to work for had 11 tables, the owner would direct people to empty chairs if all the tables were occupied. People had to share or go. We had no complaints and the cafe is still packed when I go in there. Don't go there lilac, you'd combust.

Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier and less stressful if some people just stayed out of busy cafes? It's not compulsory, you know.

you cannot refuse to provide a service because some of your customers have discriminatory prejudices such as not wanting a person of another gender to share the table

Andrew it depends on the cafe's policy, i don't make the rules. But in areas with large Muslim population the cafes will be tending to cater to the cultural needs of this population. You think you are being inoffensive yes but you are sitting very close to her and using her table after she said no to you. So she feels harassed and complains. Maybe she is also waiting for her husband, but you will not vacate the seat so she gets stressed and upset because you are creating a problem for her. In our cafe staff will sympathise with her and we will ask you to move or leave because she had the table first. The cafe provides a service of food and drink, also a table and chair when one is vacant. It doesn't promise you a table straight away so at busy times the customers will wait. Also in no cafe I have worked in had a policy that customers have to share tables. Oh and BTW not all Muslim women wear hijab or refuse to share the table with men

I think a lot of people are being very rude to Lilac here, getting rather caught up in a whirlwind of self-righteousness. The small tables in some coffee shops are tiny! Why would you want to share one with a stranger? And why do the feelings of one group outweigh the feelings of another? This reminds me greatly of the seat recline thread.

I guess it depends where you are, table sharing is rare here...waiting for a couple of minutes is not. If a cafe is full when I arrive (as in, no empty tables) I either get a take away or go elsewhere.

Why would you want to share one with a stranger?

Well it's not really about actively wanting to, is it? It's more the case that sharing with a stranger is preferable to hovering, trying to eat or drink standing up, or do any of the other silly things suggested by people being silly on here.

Soldier yes of course it's in UK. Why do you think the policy is about sex-discrimination? If a man complained about a woman sitting too close to him or using his table when he said no we would ask her to move too (just hasn't happened so far!) I think it will come under respectful behaviour to other customers so if someone doesn't wish to share their table with you or sit very close to you, you must respect their feelings and wait for a vacant seat with more room around it.

You cannot have a policy that is contrary to the law. Remember that cake shop that refused to make a cake for a gay couple ? The B and B that refused to honour the booking of a gay couple??both on religious grounds. And they were found to he in breach of the law because they were discriminating.
Neither can you just consider things from the female point of view. Why does her possible distress matter more than the make customers distress, humiliation and discomfort at the hands of your cafés blatant discrimination?
Men and women have equal rights. If a woman choses to feel harassed by a man innocently drinking a cup of coffee at her table , then she has my sympathies.
Demonising anyone for no other reason that their sex or gender should never be condoned, far less encouraged

I like sharing tables in cafes and often beckon old ladies over if I can see them approaching or looking for somewhere. I've had some bloody hilarious conversations this way that have really made my day. I am 46 and find most old ladies are not bothered about what people think and thus speak their minds freely and most entertainingly!

Why "of course?"
You are openly discriminatory, contrary to UK law and MN has members from around the world.
Not all countries have the same equality legislation as the UK and your policy is so prejudiced it seemed unlikely to be in the UK

Jaleh If you are in the UK and you would make a man move or leave where you would not make a woman move or leave you are treading on legal thin ice. One of these days a male customer will be so pissed off at such humiliation that the ice will crack and you will end up with some very bad publicity and a big bill.

Which would at least warn other cafe owners, especially the chains, not to do the same thing and allow them to tell the woman I'm very sorry but we are not allowed to insist that he goes as long as he is just sitting there minding his own business.

Soldier the cafe does not refuse to let men and women sit together. Customers can share their table with strangers of opposite sex (or same sex) if they want to. We only get involved if a customer complains of being harassed eg. if someone sat at their table after being told no and will not move, because like most cafes we don't have a policy that says customers must share the tables. We expect customers not to upset each other and to wait for a vacant table if nobody wants to share. Most of time people wait very patiently, we have an area you can stand with tray so there is no hovering.

Well Jaleh if you choose to make customers wait on an equal-opps basis so be it, I would never go back to you but perhaps others would. But it was you who wrote about catering to the cultural "needs" of a Muslim population, which pulls in one direction only.

I can imagine the uproar on MN if a woman said that she had been refused the use of a seat at a table in a cafe because a Muslim man said he "could not" share a table with a woman!

But sitting at a table with a spare seat is not harassment if you are not actually harassing the other occupants in some manner, either verbally or physically.
A man sitting at a table of women is not harassing them by reason of his sex. Nor is he upsetting them.
If the women chose to feel upset or harassed by solely by reason of his sex, then that is their decision.
If the cafe asks the man to move because they claim his presence constitutes harassment by reason only of his sex when he has had no interaction that could be classed as harassment, then that is discrimination.
It's not hard to work out that claiming someone is upsetting someone else because of their sex, religion or race is discrimination.
Men and women have equal rights in the UK, including the right not to be discriminated against. Saying "he can stand" when there is a perfectly good chair you would let a woman use is discrimination.

Well Soldier and Andrew I am not the cafe-owner so I don't know how thin the legal ice is. I suppose policy might say no customer can share another customer's table unless first customer is ok with it, which makes it not about gender more about not sharing table if you are not given permission. If a woman is happy to share with a woman but not with a man that is personal to her not the cafe policy. Perhaps she is happy to share with some men but one-day a certain man makes her feel uneasy so she will say no to him joining her. She should feel safe to eat and drink.

Jaleh

If a woman is happy to share with a woman but not with a man that is personal to her not the cafe policy.

Businesses must not discriminate to please the customer. El Vinos lost the case about women standing at the bar, which was based on the preference of many of their male customers. And quite right too - the result, not the male customers who just had to accept the outcome.

She should feel safe to eat and drink.

Certainly, but a man drinking his coffee and not trying to interact with her is not a rational reason not to feel safe.

So a female customer asks you to remove a customer who has not actually harassed her and is simply sitting, drinking his coffee and minding his own business but she claims to feel harassed because he's male.
You then ask him to move simply on account of his gender.
I'd say you'd be setting yourself up for a gender discrimination claim and some nasty publicity.

You cannot discriminate on the grounds that a person "might make someone else feel uneasy" when what you mean is because that person is male. Or gay. Or black. Or Jewish. Or because they have Tourette's Syndrome. Or use a wheelchair. Or have ASD. All things that are part of that persons makeup, which are intrinsic to them and which are protected from discrimination by law.
A place that collides in that sort of discrimination on the excuse that it is serving its customers is still breaking the law. As an employer, the cafe should ensure its employees understand how equalities legislation impacts on how they conduct their business. As an employee you should treat all customers with dignity.

Jaleh - take your scenario and substitute the "woman" for a "white man" and "man" for a "black man". I suspect there are a fair few bigoted white people who would feel uncomfortable with a black person sitting at their table. I'd wager you'd tell the bigot to leave in that situation (or face the shit storm if you make the black person leave).

Different bigots. Same injustice.

I find it interesting, Jaleh, that you started off talking about 'cultural needs' but then when posters asked you about discrimination, tried to backtrack and make it just about 'all customers' being 'respectful' of each other.

Very slippery.

"But in areas with large Muslim population the cafes will be tending to cater to the cultural needs of this population."

So, tend to break the law, then - I wish I could pipe up and call that an isolated thing but sadly, anyone with an assistance/guide dog already encounters just that, it is not common but usual for such vulnerable/disabled persons to be barred entry from eating establishments, and more worryingly refused taxis (eg: left where they are) - which can amount to being ostracized for your disability if you happen to live in the wrong area.

Real work needs to be done there, that can't be going on.

I am still not really seeing how it can be discrimination. In UK we have separate male-female changing rooms, toilets and some waiting rooms at train stations say 'ladies only'. There is a Ladies Nighttime Bus where I live that men cannot use and my local swim-pool has women-only swim sessions but no men-only sessions and no men-only bus. How do these fit within UK law if genders must have equal? I think these things are just to help women feel safe, private and not stared at? Not religious or cultural reasons?

OnlyLovers i am not backtracking, Andrew asked me how cafe's policy fits in with the law so i explained how i believe it fits in. Catering to cultural needs of local population is not breaking any laws e.g. many cafes in our area serve only halal foods because this is what average customer wants. Also some local restaurants and shisha-cafes in my area try to seat all-male groups and all-women groups in different parts of cafe. I don't think they have a strict rule it's just what their customers prefer. Mixed gender groups can sit anywhere. I like this type of place if I go out at night with women friends we don't feel hassled because men will not try to sit with us or talk to us in these places. How is that wrong?

Collaborate how does it have anything to do with skin colour?

Soldier harassment means to upset and disturb on purpose. You don't have to touch or talk to be harassing. If you sit down at somebody's cafe table and he/she says 'please don't sit here' because she/he is not comfortable for you to sit so close (or was keeping all seats for family) then if you refuse to move you are harassing. People find different things harassing but knowingly upsetting a person and refusing to change your behaviour, this is harassment. If somebody tells me 'no don't do that i don't like it' and i keep doing it this is harassing.

Doubtless the anti-gay B&B owners in NI felt they were meeting the needs of their community when they refused the customers. However they weren't meeting the needs of their customers and were quite rightly pulled up on it. Jaleh - you are choosing to meet the need of only one of your customers, and choosing to do so on the basis of gender. It would be just as if the NI B&B owners didn't really object to gay customers, but if other customers were to object they would tell the gay customers to leave. They would be pandering to the prejudices of their customers and acting unlawfully as a result.

Same for you.

I asked you to consider how uncomfortable you would feel if someone was acting as you would act, but based on skin colour. I assume you would find such behaviour abhorrent.

Is it only bigotry you approve of that you would uphold?

Goodness I am lucky to live in an apparently alternative universe where there are usually plenty of tables in cafes, but in the unlikely event that there are no free tables I just don't bother.

Jaleh the facilities you mention are exempt from the Equality Act 2010. Your café isn't as it's not a facility specifically designed for women.
I hope that soon your discriminatory behaviour towards male customers is challenged and you and your cafe are sued out of business.