Sharing tables in cafés

[Athenaviolet]

I'm genuinely not sure if IABU here.

I was in a cafe today. It was quite busy. Tbh if I'd known it was going to be busy I'd have gone elsewhere. My reason for going wasn't for the food & drink but for somewhere to sit to look up jobs on my phone, take notes etc. I wanted to sit for a couple of hours and it cost £6 for the privilege which I could do with not spending. There's tension in the house atm so don't feel comfortable there.

After I'd finished my sandwich but was still drinking my juice (in a transparent bottle so was obviously not finished) an older man came over to my table and asked if anyone was using the spare seats. I said no because that was the truth but it made me extremely uncomfortable him sitting next to me. I found it really hard to concentrate and left before I otherwise would have. (I have autistic traits so find 'social' situations difficult) I spent the next hour driving about in the rain.

Was he being unreasonable 'invading' my space? I was in his situation the other day and I just stood and waited for a free table. I think this is the polite thing to do.

Could I have said "please don't sit there while I'm still having my order"?

I'm very uncertain in these sort of social dilemmas. Imo when I'm paying (the extra) for a sit in meal part of what I'm paying for is 'the experience' of a table to sit in peace at. If I was just hungry I'd just go to a drive through.

Leaves mumsnet after the wait for a sane thread becomes interminable.
No longer willing to share my internet with strange strangers.
Not aimed at op.

Culture... interesting points, very thought-prevoking. I accept I may be wrong about some of the 'unwritten social conventions' and will be observing cafe behaviour closely from now on, just in case!

People have said they would ask if they could sit down
Several pps said they would not ask, they would simply sit on any unoccupied chair, and if told it was taken they would decline to move until the occupant returned. One pp argued no-one should ask, as an unoccupied chair is public property. I'm guessing this is what she would do 'in theory' but would not dare do in real-life. I've certainly not come across anyone doing this. As you say, 'unwritten social conventions' might be different in different areas... also in different types of cafe and amongst different age-groups. My observations are largely based on city-centre chains.

I agree it's selfish for one person to take up a 4-seater table. However if a person arrives early, takes a small corner table (e.g. the smallest 2-seater available) I think it's fine to spread out papers and laptop, and take advantage of the continuous caffeine/sugar available that you can't get in a library or office. Personally I don't work/study in cafes (too easily distracted) but I can understand why many people do. I agree it's polite to make space if there's room, but equally I feel they're entitled to solo use of a small table if they're buying drinks and food all day, provided they don't hog spare chairs.

If they say no, with no reason given, again no problem but they are being unreasonable in that case, and selfish and inconsiderate
I think it's kinder to assume that someone who says no has a good reason. I wouldn't expect someone to tell me if they have ASD, social anxiety etc. If they seemed a bit jumpy I might suspect, but sometimes there are no outward signs. I don't think it's fair to write a person off as selfish and inconsiderate without knowing them. When my friend was having CBT for social anxiety disorder, part of her recovery involved graded exposure to public places, buying a drink in cafes etc. In beginning she would panic and leave soon as cafe got crowded, but by the end of CBT she could sit by herself in corner and eat/drink, i don't think anyone ever insisted on sharing her table but it bothers me to think she would have been so harshly judged. You never know what someone else is going through. It's also worth remembering it's unacceptable for a male stranger to sit at a female's table in many cultures. We are a multicultural society and need to make allowances for cultural differences. I have several friends of middle-eastern background who would be horrified if a male stranger joined them for lunch, not just because it is culturally unacceptable to them but because they'd fear being seen by a family member.

I don't know how Nandos or Wetherspoons work, having never been in either of them
In both you choose your own table, then queue at counter to order food (giving table-number when you order and paying on the spot not at the end). Food is brought to table by waiter but soft drinks, cutlery, sauces etc are self-service.

Lilac, I suppose you are sufficiently perfect enough to have never been in a position where you weren't able to plan ahead? Some of us mere mortals are occasionally in the position where we didn't take in to account all possibilities

yes of course I have. I try to avoid cafes at busiest times but I've eaten a panini standing up in Costa on several occasions (it was raining) and on other occasions I've asked for take-away and taken my lunch to the nearest bench. No great hardship. No-one's fault there were no free tables, and I didn't feel my only option was to squeeze onto a small table that someone else was using.

Personal space means the space around you as a person, not as much space as you can grab for yourself as possible
I agree. Definition of personal space varies person to person and culture to culture... but the personal space zone is generally defined as arm's length (for people you are not socially intimate with). So stretch your arm out in front of you or to the sides... this is your zone of personal space, that strangers generally respect especially when eating in a cafe. Sharing a small tray-sized table makes it difficult to maintain this zone, as does a stranger sitting in chair next to you.

Lilac has her fingers in her ears going Lalalalalalala I'm not listening.

I appreciate how you feel, Lilac, but your feelings are not the norm.

In our crowded country an arms length around you as personal space is not maintainable in very many situations. Queuing, on the train (where you may in fact be forced into physical contact with one or more strangers for a prolonged amount of time), ditto for the tube, buses, planes, in crowds, in busy venues, stadiums, shops (ever been to the sale?) etc etc. We all are in situations where the amount of space available means that people have to share less space than they would like. I'm not suggesting that people share the tiny tables you get in coffee shops, nor that they squash up to the point they're practically touching you. Just sitting at the same table (for 2 or more, assuming it isn't one of those tiny tables that's allegedly for two), whilst usually trying to give you as much space as possible.

I have had plenty of people ask for a chair, but can't remember the last time somebody asked to share a table in a cafe. On the other hand as far as I know the world is full of busy cafes where people happily share tables - but I would never encounter them because I wouldn't bother going in if I saw that all the tables were full - I would go somewhere else. I certainly wouldn't try to work in a busy cafe.

Maybe this is the reason that people are having different experiences - people who don't like sharing tend to avoid busy crowded spaces if possible.

On the other hand, I have been to quite a few places where you have to sit next to strangers - sushi restaurants, wagamama's - somehow sitting next to somebody because you that is the way the restaurant is set up is less intimate than sharing a table.

yes, sushi restaurants often have those long L-shaped tables... and restaurants with an open grill and bar-style seating around grill are getting popular too (watching the chefs at work feels less intimate than facing a stranger). I guess if you choose to eat in a place with this style of seating you accept you will sit next to strangers, whereas in a cafe/coffee shop you generally have your own table.

I agree there are lots of situations where the arm's length personal space is not possible. If I enter a crowded place (shop, train, bus, crowd etc) I don't expect personal space at all... but then I have chosen to enter this situation. However, if I'm sitting at a tiny table in a coffee-shop eating my lunch, with space around me, I expect strangers not to intrude into my personal space zone by sharing. Likewise if I go to a cafe at busy time I'd wait for a table to become free (or take-out) rather than invade someone else's space.

If the table has two seats allocated to it the other chair is not your personal space.

You might hang around with your food and drink getting cold, which is your choice. You've been told that others wouldn't do so.

I don't call it an option to take your own- you don't know it will be busy before you set off. You also don't want to buy and take out if cold and wet.
I think this is a MN problem- I never see all this fuss in RL.

Do people really say no? I find this hard to believe. They say no to someone sitting at a chair that isn't in their own home and doesn't belong to them. How inconsiderate.

OP, you were being unreasonable. And discourteous.

How was OP discourteous? The guy asked if the seat was free, OP said yes, he sat down, OP finished her drink and left.

True. Sorry, I misread. She wasn't in fact unreasonable either. She did the right thing. I muddled her thread with some of the subsequent threads.

Fair enough - it's been a long thread... I just looked again at the OP's first post and I had the guy's question the wrong way round.

I've eaten a panini standing up in Costa on several occasions
Youv'e clearly got issues Lilac
Somebody standing around awkwardly whilst eating, glaring around for a table to become available would make me feel more uncomfortable than if they were just to sit down at the same table as me and get on with their food/drink comfortably. If find your behaviour really odd.

I am not eating anything standing up! Apart from anything else, like common sense, you would be in the way. I have never ever seen anyone eating standing up - they do the sensible thing and sit down on a spare seat.

I am not eating anything standing up!
So you are unable to wait for a table and also incapable of eating standing up What would you do if there were no seats free at all, if all the 'unoccupied' seats turn out to be taken? (e.g. people are in loo or queuing at counter). Would you take someone else's seat?? And why would you order in a busy cafe assuming there will be spare seats by the time you've paid? Are you expecting someone to give up their seat for you so you don't have to wait/stand?

Somebody standing around awkwardly whilst eating, glaring around for a table to become available would make me feel more uncomfortable
Many coffee shops have a bar-type area at window with space to stand. It's not unusual to see people standing up to eat/drink when it's packed and raining outside. Why do you assume anyone standing is uncomfortable, awkward or glaring around at the people seated? Some people are in a hurry.

If I went into a cafe and there were no free seats, I'd walk out. If there were seats, I'd expect to be able to sit in one of them.

This is such a weird discussion...

...posted too soon... sorry.

A standing area with a bar or ledge to lean on or put you drink/food down on is not the kind of standing and waiting that people mean! Obviously. People who are happy to stand can choose to stand there and that's their choice, it's not the same as standing around waiting for a seat.

No one would take another persons seat from them. That is rude and aggressive and you don't need to be a master of understanding subtle human interaction to know it. So it's absurd to suggest it as something that others would do.

I might well order in a busy cafe if there weren't any tables, hoping that there might be by the time my order is made. Of course I could be wrong and then be left hanging. This has never happened, as usually you can tell if the turnover is quick enough for you to reasonably expect a seat.

There is going to be at least one spare seat somewhere!
This is weird thread- it is very simple in RL and I have always found a seat. If I need to join someone they have always been fine about it.
I could safely bet that any cafe will have a few spare seats.
I wouldn't get any food and drink in the highly unlikely event that there was a bottom on every single seat! It hasn't happened yet, and it won't.

Mehitabel6 Usually several spare seats but at busy times all at tables where someone else is sitting - that's the point. The new arrival had to decide at which table to sit and if it's the one where someone like the OP is sitting that person nay be pissed off or just uncomfortable and it's JTB!

Of course it is the point, LilacWine asked what I would do if there were no seats- and there would always be some! I would have to sit at one.
I have never seen all this fuss in RL- eveyone manages. Probably they smile but seethe inside and complain on MN afterwards!