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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Sharing tables in cafés

963 replies

Athenaviolet · 01/06/2015 18:48

I'm genuinely not sure if IABU here.

I was in a cafe today. It was quite busy. Tbh if I'd known it was going to be busy I'd have gone elsewhere. My reason for going wasn't for the food & drink but for somewhere to sit to look up jobs on my phone, take notes etc. I wanted to sit for a couple of hours and it cost £6 for the privilege which I could do with not spending. There's tension in the house atm so don't feel comfortable there.

After I'd finished my sandwich but was still drinking my juice (in a transparent bottle so was obviously not finished) an older man came over to my table and asked if anyone was using the spare seats. I said no because that was the truth but it made me extremely uncomfortable him sitting next to me. I found it really hard to concentrate and left before I otherwise would have. (I have autistic traits so find 'social' situations difficult) I spent the next hour driving about in the rain.

Was he being unreasonable 'invading' my space? I was in his situation the other day and I just stood and waited for a free table. I think this is the polite thing to do.

Could I have said "please don't sit there while I'm still having my order"?

I'm very uncertain in these sort of social dilemmas. Imo when I'm paying (the extra) for a sit in meal part of what I'm paying for is 'the experience' of a table to sit in peace at. If I was just hungry I'd just go to a drive through.

OP posts:
clumberpark · 04/06/2015 18:52

The difference as I see it, mileend, is that it's slightly more considerate to ask the direct question "do you mind if I sit here?" in a non-ambiguous way (with no confusion about whether he wants to take the chair away), which theoretically allows for the other person to give either answer (I'd rather you didn't if that's okay/no I don't mind at all), than it is to ask an indirect question which doesn't allow for the other person to state their preference, but only to give a factual response (yes it's taken/no it isn't).

Although in reality it's socially unacceptable to say "yes I do mind if you sit here", one at least feel one has been asked and given the opportunity to have an opinion, whereas when asked "is this seat taken" one might feel there hasn't been an opportunity to express one's preference (even though the outcome is the same - socially one is kind of obliged to share in a cafe when asked).

It's a subtle distinction, though, and I wouldn't think someone was rude just for asking "is this seat taken".

Cliffdiver · 04/06/2015 19:29

I'm going against the grain and saying YANBU, I don't like the idea of anyone sitting at 'my' table either because I never ever get any peace at home when I eat, especially not if I still had food, but if someone did ask I would smile and say of course sit here.

kali110 · 04/06/2015 22:36

ilovesooty i could have been the dangerous one Grin

LilacWine7 · 04/06/2015 23:05

I don't get why people are saying the man should ask if he could sit there so the OP could refuse
Of course he should ask! Who in real-life would sit down at a stranger's table without first asking if the seat was free?! What if OP had a companion who was in loo or queuing or running late? If table was small and space limited, she had every right to decline to share. A small table is personal space. If table is only big enough for one tray it's designed for one party to use, whether that party is 1 person or 3. Obviously if it was a 4-seater then it's U for one person to hog it when others are standing. I agree with a pp who said always choose the smallest table. But if there are 3 people at a 4-seater, IMO it's rude to insist on joining them... table is in use for a party of 3. Take the chair if they say they don't need it, but don't gate-crash. You wouldn't join a group of strangers in a restaurant just because there are empty seats at their table... why is it so different in a cafe? I don't see what's so terrible about waiting. Most busy cafes have a fast turnover rate and you won't be waiting long.

And all that shit about you should stand around with your drink and food going cold until a table becomes available for your solo use (who knows how long this may be?!) is absolute bollocks
Why shouldn't you have to wait your turn? Why should you impose on other people just because you have chosen a busy cafe at a busy time and you are too impatient to wait for a free table?
The people who have tables had the initiative to get there early. It's not that they can't possibly share a table with another human it's that they don't want to!! Most people prefer NOT to share a small table with a stranger, it's awkward and uncomfortable. Some people get panicky about sharing personal space, especially when eating. I have a friend with social anxiety who would be unable to eat if a stranger sat at a small table with her, she is too polite to say no but would probably leave. By inviting yourself to share, you're intruding... and potentially interrupting a private conversation and spoiling someone else's meal/drink.

Most people are too polite to say no especially when caught off guard. To the pp who said they had 'no other choice' than to share another couples's table and felt this was 'fine'... are you sure they felt the same? Other couple were put on the spot. They may have resented the intrusion and wondered why you couldn't wait your turn. I disagree there was 'no other option' because the other option is to wait for a free table. If I was in a cafe where you couldn't reserve before queuing, I'd count the number of people/parties in queue then the number of free tables... if there weren't enough tables and I couldn't cope with possibility of my food going cold, I'd find somewhere quieter.

mileend2bermondsey · 05/06/2015 00:01

Of course he should ask! Who in real-life would sit down at a stranger's table without first asking if the seat was free?!
He did ask if the seat was free.

Why shouldn't you have to wait your turn?
Because its a cafe and despite your in depth social experiments it is compeltely normal and reasonable to share a table with another customer if there are no free tables left.

It's not that they can't possibly share a table with another human it's that they don't want to!!
Don't go in a busy cafe if your that terrified of the prospect that someone else may gasp sit at the same table as you. I don't think anyone sits there thinking, oh I do hope a stranger joins me, but they accept the fact that in a busy cafe with limited seating it may well happen.

I have a friend with social anxiety who would be unable to eat if a stranger sat at a small table with her
Thats her problem, no one elses. Best advice, don't go out to a busy cafe and expect to hog one table to herself.

Summerisle1 · 05/06/2015 00:08

Agree with everything milend2bermondsey has just said. Couldn't have put it better.

CultureSucksDownWords · 05/06/2015 00:58

Lilac I disagree with you about nearly all of your post.

A restaurant is totally different to a cafe. In a restaurant you are definitely booking/using a table for your party of whatever size. The restaurant staff will manage who sits where so that they can allocate orders to tables. A counter service cafe/coffee shop where you pay first like Costas et al does not do this, as they don't need to know where you are sitting. In a cafe/coffee shop, where people sit is up to them to decide and negotiate.

If I was sat at a table for 2 or more on my own, and there were clearly people near me stood looking for somewhere to sit, I would ask them if they wanted to use the free spaces on the table I was at. I haven't booked or reserved a table, or been allocated it by the staff so it is not reserved wholly for me if there is a shortage of seats elsewhere. I actually think it's a pleasantly civilised thing, to politely share a public space with a stranger. Even though I don't like to share if I don't have to! But in a busy cafe/coffee shop environment it's sometimes a possibility.

As for showing "initiative" by getting there early enough to hog get a table... Does it not occur to you that a lot of people have a specific amount of time in their day when they are able to have a coffee and a bit of food? Maybe a lunch break, or a gap between appointments, or a short while between work and picking up the children or whatever! They're not in the position to plan their day around the optimal use of the coffee shop.

If having plenty of personal space at all times is vital to you I would recommend going to a restaurant for coffee. Chain places like Cote or Strada will do coffee, with the added bonus of being allocated a table when you arrive, for your sole use.

Mehitabel6 · 05/06/2015 07:10

A good summing up CultureSucks.
The moral of the story is don't go to a self service cafe, when you can see it is busy, if it bothers you to share a table.
Those of us who are in our own and are looking for a seat will have to sit somewhere! We are not going to stand around on the off chance we might eventually get a whole table, while our drink goes cold.

JassyRadlett · 05/06/2015 07:29

Ooh, Culture, but you've just identified the hazy middle zone - table service cafes.

What rules there?

MythicalKings · 05/06/2015 07:36

FFS!

It's ridiculous to suggest that people should hover about with coffee and food getting cold in case someone has social anxiety or doesn't like sharing a table. It's the norm to sit on free seats. If you don't want to share a table don't go into a café.

It isn't rude to use an unoccupied chair at a table with just one customer, it's expected.

You are the one with the problem not the rest of society. Suck it up or stay out.

CultureSucksDownWords · 05/06/2015 08:38

Ah, Jassy, I realise that as I read my post back, it's a good point...

After careful consideration, I would say that table service cafes are more like restaurants, and table sharing is not expected. Unless the tables are so large that it is unfeasible to have whole use of them.

whois · 05/06/2015 08:51

Can't believe how many are in the 'eeeek a STRANGER oh my table? Oh no I'm a lay-dee don't cha know, I couldn toossible' camp.

It's 100% normal to share tables at cafes if there are no others free.

If you don't like that, go to a restraint, get take out and sit in the park on your own or go back home.

I think mumsnet has a higher than average amount of people posting who have social difficulties.

Anyway just because someone is sitting are same table doesn't mean you're peace has been invaded. You don't have to talk to each other!

LilacWine7 · 05/06/2015 10:44

If having plenty of personal space at all times is vital to you I would recommend going to a restaurant for coffee
Or people who cannot cope with standing, waiting or take-away coffee could opt for the restaurant and be guaranteed a seat. I disagree cafes have a rule that every unoccupied chair is 'public space'. If this was the case, there would be notices up, or staff would tell people to share tables. Can you imagine the look on a barista's face if you said 'I want to sit at that table because the seat looks free, but those people don't want me to join them' or 'that lady said the other seat's taken but I don't believe her, please tell her she must let me share her table, I don't like waiting or standing up.'

It's 100% normal to share tables at cafes if there are no others free
I've never come across this in real-life though I'm now on the lookout for it! IME people wait their turn rather than barge into someone else's space.
Yesterday I had lunch in city centre Nero with DH... and again hoped to observe some of this elusive MN table-sharing. Our tiny table had 3 chairs, we used 2. Several single people were sitting at small tables with 2 chairs, many with laptops and paperwork spread over their table. At busiest time, people waited 5-10mins for tables to become free, but nobody disturbed us OR any of the single-occupant tables. I tried to imagine going up to one of these people and saying 'please move your laptop, tray and papers so I can sit down and share your table, as I don't like waiting'... I couldn't imagine myself (or anyone else) doing this in real-life. It would be incredibly rude and intrusive.

I think mumsnet has a higher than average amount of people posting who have social difficulties
What a strange thing to say. Not wanting to share a cramped table with a stranger does not mean you have 'social difficulties'. And IMO people with genuine problems like ASD or social anxiety should not be excluded from cafes either, or made to feel anxious because others are too impatient to wait. Tables are first come first serve. A bit of respect for personal space is important. On public transport, in crowds, in queues, in a canteen with communal benches... yes you have to share space. But having a nice lunch in a cafe is not a situation where anyone should feel obliged to squash up with strangers or share their tiny table.

After careful consideration, I would say that table service cafes are more like restaurants, and table sharing is not expected
So it's appropriate to table-share in Costa, but not in say... Nandos or Wetherspoons... or an artisan cafe where waiter comes to table? How do you justify the different rule? Lunch prices are similar, people still want to have a nice meal or drink undisturbed.

Does it not occur to you that a lot of people have a specific amount of time in their day when they are able to have a coffee and a bit of food?
Of course. I used to work in a city centre, with a set time for lunch. You don't HAVE to choose a busy cafe, nor do you have to sit-in. If you can't plan ahead to avoid the busiest time, be prepared to take-out or wait for a table. I don't think it's fair to expect others to move up and make room at an already cramped table. They got there early to secure a table with adequate elbow-room. It's not their fault you couldn't get there early to do the same. Sitting at a tiny table by yourself is not 'hogging' it, these tables are designed for 1 person (or 2 or 3 friends who are comfortable sharing an intimate space).

Again, if you think table-sharing is really the norm, go into a Costa/Nero/Starbucks at busiest time and watch how often table-sharing happens in real-life (and observe how many single people eat alone at a small table undisturbed)... you will be surprised how patient the majority are and how much we respect each other's space Smile

JessieMcJessie · 05/06/2015 10:45

Could have been worse OP, you could have

(a) been recovering from a stroke
(b) had Kate Moss demand not just half your table but your chair

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3111758/The-day-Kate-Moss-kicked-seat-Andrew-Marr-Broadcaster-tells-lost-words-model-demanded-chair-cafe.html

merrymouse · 05/06/2015 11:28

I think Lilac is right in that a substantial number of people, possibly the majority, would just see that there were no free tables and leave. I'm not saying it's wrong to ask to share a table or judging people who do, just observing that many people don't like sharing tables.

mileend2bermondsey · 05/06/2015 13:06

imagine going up to one of these people and saying 'please move your laptop, tray and papers so I can sit down and share your table, as I don't like waiting'... I couldn't imagine myself (or anyone else) doing this in real-life. It would be incredibly rude
Actually the people hogging tables to use as their own personal study space for hours on end whilst they nurse a coffee are actually the rude ones. It's a cafe/coffee shop, not a fucking office.

At busiest time, people waited 5-10mins for tables to become free, but nobody disturbed us OR any of the single-occupant tables
Funny how you ALWAYS see this, yet I have never seen it. Yes people hovering over a clearly leaving table but not just hanging around with their food and drinks on a tray for 10 minutes, in the hope a table may become free. If I actually saw this I would assume the person was incredibly mard/soft as to not just ask to sit at anothers table. It's weird behaviour. I would probably offer them to sit with me. Not because I love 'having my personal space invaded', but because it is normal practice in cafes/coffee shops despite your many protests that it isnt.

these tables are designed for 1 person (or 2 or 3 friends
Ahh, its cool that the cafes you go to have invested in these shape shifting tables that can accommodate 3 friends but only 1 solo occupant. How does the table know if youre friends or strangers and change size accordingly?

Mehitabel6 · 05/06/2015 15:57

If it is the only cafe you have no choice of going elsewhere. You are not always conveniently in a town centre.

LilacWine7 · 05/06/2015 16:07

How does the table know if youre friends or strangers and change size accordingly?
Grin I wish shape-shifting tables existed, that would be perfect solution!
My point was that many small tables are only big enough for 1 tray... which implies they are either designed for 1 person with 1 tray, or friends who have 1 tray between them. A tray-size table is too small and intimate to comfortably share with a stranger, you are invading someone's personal space. How strange to say single people shouldn't have a small table to themselves and must instead share it with strangers! Plenty of people visit cafes alone and enjoy a solitary coffee or lunch. There's nothing wrong with that, and no rules to say single customers must sit together.

Actually the people hogging tables to use as their own personal study space for hours on end whilst they nurse a coffee are actually the rude ones. It's a cafe/coffee shop, not a fucking office
Nowadays it's fine to work or study in modern coffee shops, provided you buy drinks/food regularly. Many of these 'table-hoggers' are loyal valued customers who buy a drink/snack every hour or so. Why do you think so many cafe/coffee-shops have free wifi and charging points? There is no time-limit for using your table. The idea of coffee shops being places you 'eat, drink, run' is very outdated. People use them to relax, chat, socialise, work, BF, study, kill a few hours, people-watch, read, wait for friends, shelter from rain etc. As long as you keep buying drinks, it's acceptable to stay a few hours or even a whole day. Staff want customers to feel happy and relaxed, not pressured into table-sharing or squashed up like sardines. They want people to have a pleasant experience and come back regularly. If you choose to go at a busy time when there are no free tables, that's your problem, not the problem of people who got there earlier.

I think the issue here is about impatience more than anything. Some people seem incapable of waiting for a free table, preferring to crowd onto someone else's small table rather than wait their turn, oblivious of the stress and discomfort this might cause.

CultureSucksDownWords · 05/06/2015 16:11

I disagree cafes have a rule that every unoccupied chair is 'public space'. If this was the case, there would be notices up, or staff would tell people to share tables. Can you imagine the look on a barista's face if you said 'I want to sit at that table because the seat looks free, but those people don't want me to join them' or 'that lady said the other seat's taken but I don't believe her, please tell her she must let me share her table, I don't like waiting or standing up.'

Of course there isn't a common rule about this! What this whole thread is about is the unwritten social conventions that people come to understand when using cafes/coffee shops. We disagree on what that unwritten convention actually is. However, there seems to be more people on this thread who disagree with you than agree with you. Who knows if that is representative of the population as a whole. My experience is different to yours. Maybe there are regional variations, perhaps London has a different social convention to other (less busy and crowded) places. I'm also puzzled by you assuming that these disagreements should be refereed by the staff in the cafe/coffee shop. They aren't there to sort out tables for customers, unlike in a restaurant or table service cafe. If someone said no when I asked to sit at the spare seat at their table, I would simply look for another table with space and not harrass the person who said no! I would privatey think that they were being somewhat selfish and rude, but again that's just my opinion.

IME people wait their turn rather than barge into someone else's space.

I don't think anyone has said they would barge into someone else's space. That would be rude. People have said they would ask if they could sit down, perhaps pointing out the lack of spare tables. They wouldn't then shuffle up to you, and start joining in your conversation!

I tried to imagine going up to one of these people and saying 'please move your laptop, tray and papers so I can sit down and share your table, as I don't like waiting'... I couldn't imagine myself (or anyone else) doing this in real-life. It would be incredibly rude and intrusive.

I wouldn't disturb anyone in that position, unless there really was no option and I wouldn't dream of doing so on one of those tiny tables. I might ask if I could use the spare chair just to sit down, and turn it away from the table. I might also ask if they could make a little room for me to put down my drink or plate. A cafe/coffee shop is a shared space, where tables are not booked out to a party (of one or however many). If you need to spread out and work, then a library would be more suitable, or a place where you can book a table. I think it is selfish and inconsiderate to go to a busy cafe/coffee shop and use a large table like that, for hours. If I had set myself up like that (say at a table for 4, on my own) and then the cafe became busier, I would tidy away a bit and offer the spare space to people looking for a seat. That's just a human kindness, as far as I can see.

But having a nice lunch in a cafe is not a situation where anyone should feel obliged to squash up with strangers or share their tiny table.
I agree. A nice cafe, with table service, and this would be weird. Sharing a tiny table which is really only meant for one (even if the cafe has wedged two chairs around it!) would be weird. A busy coffee shop with no space, and counter service, and it's not wrong to ask if you can sit at spare seats at the most under-occupied table. Of course if the person sat there tells you their companions are in the loo, or just coming from the queue or whatever then that's no problem. If they say no, with no reason given, again no problem but they are being unreasonable in that case, and selfish and inconsiderate. If the reason they say no is that they have issues around personal space, a fear of a particular gender, or social anxiety then they are being less unreasonable, but the person asking cannot possibly know that.

So it's appropriate to table-share in Costa, but not in say... Nandos or Wetherspoons... or an artisan cafe where waiter comes to table? How do you justify the different rule? Lunch prices are similar, people still want to have a nice meal or drink undisturbed.

Again, there's no rule... I was giving my opinion of the unwritten social conventions. I've explained why table service makes a difference, and it's down to the waiting staff needing to know which order goes to which table. They need to allocate people to tables, so who sits where is up to them. I don't know how Nandos or Wetherspoons work, having never been in either of them.

I used to work in a city centre, with a set time for lunch. You don't HAVE to choose a busy cafe, nor do you have to sit-in. If you can't plan ahead to avoid the busiest time, be prepared to take-out or wait for a table.
If you can't plan ahead to choose a table service cafe/coffee shop/restaurant then be prepared to be asked to share your table if it gets very busy. If you want more personal space than nearly everyone else would expect, then you need to organise it to suit you.

you will be surprised how patient the majority are and how much we respect each other's space
I respect other people's personal space, and I am extremely patient. However, I don't agree that your personal space extends to cover whatever size table you happen to sit at in the situation we are discussing. The tiny tables they have in coffee shops are clearly too small to share without invading people's space, so I would think it unreasonable and rude to ask to "share" such a table. I reject your assertion that you are in the majority.

(I would consider my patience to be demonstrated by the length of my reply to your points...!)

LilacWine7 · 05/06/2015 16:11

If it is the only cafe you have no choice of going elsewhere. You are not always conveniently in a town centre
Of course you have options. You could buy food/drinks to take-out rather than sit inside. Or you could plan ahead and take a packed lunch if you are going somewhere with only one cafe. Or... you could wait your turn for a table like the majority seem to do in real-life.

Summerisle1 · 05/06/2015 16:12

I really do think that it is the over-sensitive snowflakes who need to be considering restaurants. Not the rest of us who have the common sense to realise that a busy cafe might well mean....shock horror, attack of the vapours and loosening of stays...that you are required to share a table. And worse, with a man!

I truly don't see why my DH (he of the mobility problems) should be required to book a table at a restaurant in order to enjoy a coffee lest he encounters someone like Lilac - who clearly assumes that his real agenda is not refreshment but instead, involves an unsavoury Benny Hill style pursuit that will see her chased around the premises while he lasciviously waves his walking stick.

Much better, surely, that she had the comfort of a pre-booked seat in a restaurant? That way no sensibilities are offended.

ilovesooty · 05/06/2015 16:21

wait your turn for a table like the majority seem to do in real life

Yet people have repeatedly told you that it isn't their experience that people hang around with trays of food and drink getting cold. They ask politely to share other people's tables. I'm not in a position of course to question your experience but please don't claim it to be that of the majority.

BrendaBlackhead · 05/06/2015 16:22

Summerisle Grin

Dh too has mobility problems and the thought of him being Benny Hill... !!!

I think we all gauge the situation with a quick scan of a coffee shop. Someone sitting at a six seater... well, it's absolutely fair game to sit at the other end. Joining a mini table... perhaps only as an absolute last resort.

As I said several pages ago, last weekend I had the misfortune to ask for someone's spare chair to use at my table and the man said no as he was using it to charge his phone. That was arse behaviour and if I could have been bothered I would have told a staff member.

I can't understand how someone would say no if someone needed to sit down in a crowded coffee shop. It's not being socially anxious or whatever, it's just downright ill mannered, inconsiderate and mean.

LurkingHusband · 05/06/2015 16:25

involves an unsavoury Benny Hill style pursuit that will see her chased around the premises while he lasciviously waves his walking stick.

Damn ! Second new keyboard needed today Grin.

CultureSucksDownWords · 05/06/2015 16:28

Lilac, I suppose you are sufficiently perfect enough to have never been in a position where you weren't able to plan ahead? Some of us mere mortals are occasionally in the position where we didn't take in to account all possibilities.

You also speak with complete authority about what cafe/coffe shop staff want. Are you by any chance a representative of one of their trade organisations?

As for telling us all what activities can be performed in a coffee shop... do you not think that we know that?! It doesn't affect whether or not it's reasonable to ask to share a table where there are free spaces.

You are also assuming that sharing a table means being squashed like sardines and being crowded. Do you feel like that when you sit at a table with anyone other than just being on your own?! Because strangers sharing with you are highly likely to try and keep further apart from you than people you know, because people do understand about personal space. It's just that the majority of people don't think that it's reasonable for your personal space to extent to fill any size of table that you sit at! Personal space means the space around you as a person, not as much space as you can grab for yourself as possible.