Sharing tables in cafés

[Athenaviolet]

I'm genuinely not sure if IABU here.

I was in a cafe today. It was quite busy. Tbh if I'd known it was going to be busy I'd have gone elsewhere. My reason for going wasn't for the food & drink but for somewhere to sit to look up jobs on my phone, take notes etc. I wanted to sit for a couple of hours and it cost £6 for the privilege which I could do with not spending. There's tension in the house atm so don't feel comfortable there.

After I'd finished my sandwich but was still drinking my juice (in a transparent bottle so was obviously not finished) an older man came over to my table and asked if anyone was using the spare seats. I said no because that was the truth but it made me extremely uncomfortable him sitting next to me. I found it really hard to concentrate and left before I otherwise would have. (I have autistic traits so find 'social' situations difficult) I spent the next hour driving about in the rain.

Was he being unreasonable 'invading' my space? I was in his situation the other day and I just stood and waited for a free table. I think this is the polite thing to do.

Could I have said "please don't sit there while I'm still having my order"?

I'm very uncertain in these sort of social dilemmas. Imo when I'm paying (the extra) for a sit in meal part of what I'm paying for is 'the experience' of a table to sit in peace at. If I was just hungry I'd just go to a drive through.

No Lilac I don't think you can apply restaurant conventions to cafés. I think it's pretty poor manners to lie about waiting for someone and leave someone standing with their coffee.

Why should someone on their own queue perhaps for some time to order then say they'll leave it just in case someone won't allow them to sit in a seat which is unoccupied?

Yes I would Lilac7 and if it was the last seat I would not even ask. Once seated I would not speak to her. What more do you want?

If you told me you did not want me to sit there I would say I'm sorry, there is nowhere else and sit down. If you told me you were expecting somebody else, well, see my last post.

But in both cases I would then get my book out - always a good sign from your point of view - and fall silent.

ilovesooty I always thought of them as cafe conventions too. I'm prepared to wait for a free table, or take my coffee elsewhere.

Andrew if you sat down without asking, when a woman has clearly told you the seat is taken, she would probably tell a member of staff who would ask you to move/leave. They are generally sympathetic to women feeling harassed and uncomfortable by men who don't respect their personal space. Also, how do you know her friend/partner hasn't just nipped to the loo?
Lots of people sit down while their friend queues up to order, especially if you have a baby or several bags. Or I might be having a drink while waiting for my friend to meet me in there, and therefore have chosen a table with 2 seats.
I'll make sure to put my jacket/bag on the spare chair next time! Or would you remove it so you could sit at my table?

Gotta get a double seat is from Ben Elton's stand up routine.

If you are obviously one of a party I will respect that. But if you are just trying to keep two seats, I won't. I will promise to move if any other seat becomes free, although if I do and the next customer with a coffee is another man and he makes a beeline for the same seat, well, there you are.

Frankly, in this day and age I don't think the management would tell a man sitting quietly over his book and his coffee to leave (certainly not an old fart in his sixties) just for being a man. They might remember that there are laws about that.

And for the upmteenth time, the chair you aren't sitting on is not your personal space.

And yes, if you are using your bag to stop anyone sitting at the only free seat I would ask you to move it. Politely, of course. Sorry, your bag is on the only free seat, would you move it please?

Ooops, I see someone already said that. It was on Saturday Night Live.

People who sit taking up seats in places like these for hours on end reading or using laptops really annoy me so I think you were BU.

Lilac but surely you can only take your coffee elsewhere if you have a takeaway cup. What if in john lewis or similar with a cup & saucer?

Perhaps all cafes should have table only service like on much of the continent unless you want to stand at the counter.
That way you sort out your table first and don't end up with a cup of coffee and nowhere to sit, if all the cafe tables are occupied you go elsewhere or stand at the counter.
The self service model of UK cafes seems to be the problem here. Sort out your table first then order.

Lilac - a thought.

You go into a cafe and there are two empty seats, both at tables for two, call them Table A where a woman is sitting and Table B where a man is sitting.

Let's add that this man is not an old fart in his sixties; you really don't like the look of him, but at the moment he's just sitting there.

While you are paying for your coffee - and while your back is turned - another customer comes out of the loo and sits on the other chair at Table A. Her bag, his bag, it does not matter which, had been on the floor and you had not noticed it. Anyway that seat is gone.

You've now paid for your coffee - in a china mug - and you want to sit and drink it. What do you do?

I don't understand why someone uncomfortable in social situations would hang around in a busy cafe on their own for two hours? I would have had to get out before then, as someone who gets self-conscious and anxious around people. There are lots of other places you can go if you want to research jobs and take notes whilst being undisturbed, like the library.

I think it is your right to have a seat if the cafe has served you. If the cafe staff felt there was no room for people then they should have stopped serving people who are expecting to be seated in the cafe. If there are spare seats and it's a self service cafe then all free seats are fair game.
If it was that busy unless it was somewhere with v limited choice most people would just go elsewhere rather than queue and hope they get a seat. Expecting to sit on a table on your own whilst other people stand is just nuts.

Loletta it's somebody else's place, not somebody else's table. If it's a two and the other is in the loo or at the counter then of course it's taken. If it's two people at a table for three they can't block the other seat if there is nowhere else. In a restaurant, yes, in a cafe, no. They've chosen the wrong place for a confidential chat.

2rebecca that's a good points ultimately it's the café's responsibility. If I ended up in a situation with a china cup/ mug full of coffee and nowhere to sit, I think I would return to the counter and say 'there's nowhere to sit, if my drink goes cold while I'm waiting for a seat, I trust you'll give me another..?'

Andrewofgg I have never said in any of my posts that the man should not have sat down or was wrong to do so, I just disagree with your interpretation of people's person space.

I've been in two situations in the last week where I've shared a table with people who have politely asked because there was no room left. Once in a cafe, and once in a food marquee at a show. In both cases it was a table, not a long bench like Wagamama.

I don't like to share, but I was more than willing to because not liking to share is my preference, and doesn't give me any extra rights over other people. I felt it would have been incredibly rude to say no, when there was room for them to sit. In both situations the two groups of people managed to eat and chat without impinging on each other's conversations or personal space.

It would be more awkward if it was me alone, sharing a table for two, but I would still just get on with it as it would be churlish to kick up a fuss.

Did someone just say it's fine to sit at a table while your friend and queues. That doesn't apply if the cafe is full/nearly full right? Bags, baby, miniature unicorn, whatever you've got with you I'd be pretty fed up if I had my food and nowhere to eat it and you were saving a table for someone further back in the queue.

Mind you, there used to be signs everywhere saying this wasn't allowed and now you don't really see it so maybe I need to chill out and move with the times.

Back to the actual question...cafe and train same rules. You use one seat per person. If there's enough space you don't have to then bonus (and I think we all prefer that). If it makes you feel really uncomfortable then that's not good at all but them's the rules.

Ooh maybe a new thread about things we do to make it look like sitting next to us would be horrid and they should pick somewhere else...

Perhaps there's a marketing opportunity in little signs to prop up saying "I do not wish to share my table with a male. Even if you are reading your book. Even if you don't engage me in conversation. Even if this is the last seat. Please stand up to drink your coffee"
Or "Intimate conversation in progress. Please do not ask to share our table as a refusal may offend."

Andrew I wouldn't be expecting to sit at Table A or Table B, because they have already been taken. If Table A is very large I might ask the lady if I can share, but I wouldn't be offended if she said no, and I wouldn't be surprised if she said she was waiting for people. I wouldn't ask to sit with the man, i'd rather stand. While in queue I would be scanning the room hoping that a table became free, but having chosen a busy cafe I'd know there's a risk I might have to drink my coffee standing up. There is no guarantee of a table. I've done this before, it's not ideal but no great hardship. I would rather do this than make someone feel uncomfortable or awkward. If there were spare chairs I might ask if I could take one, and would move chair to a space or where there was something I could balance cup on. Or more likely I would ask for a takeaway cup and find somewhere outside to sit.

I feel a small table counts as personal space if it's only big enough for the one tray. Two people using a tiny coffee-shop table will be almost touching foreheads if they are both bending over it to eat! Single people are just as entitled to their own table as couples or groups, they shouldn't have to share a small table with strangers. It's not like a train or bus (although even on trains and buses there is no guarantee of a seat).

If it's a two and the other is in the loo or at the counter then of course it's taken. If it's two people at a table for three they can't block the other seat if there is nowhere else
But how do you know whether the third person is in the loo or still on their way to the cafe? Or has gone to change the baby or is queuing to buy another round of drinks or order extra food? Most people will just say 'that' seat's taken' they won't elaborate. Also, I think 2 women sitting at a small table with 3 chairs can ask a man not to share their table if they feel uncomfortable about it. Especially if space is cramped and he is sitting very close. If a man took the seat and refused to move (after we had told him the seat was taken) I would have a quiet word with a member of staff, explain a man had joined us at our table uninvited, and that we felt intimidated/uneasy about him. Most barristas are sensitive to women feeling harassed or uncomfortable, they are also aware many men use coffee bars as pick-up places. I do appreciate there are plenty of men who just want to have a quiet sit down and drink their coffee.

You have to say it's okay. There is no other way round it. Even if you thoroughly dislike the look of the person asking. Good manners, common courtesy insists on it. And two hours! For a £6 lunch. That was pushing it.

Sorry, but it's no use bringing gender into it. Where a woman can sit down in a crowded cafe so can a man.

The barista cannot order the man who is just sitting quietly and having his coffee to move - still less to leave if there is no other free seat - because the women are uncomfortable with him.

ilovesooty There may also be a market for a card saying "This seat is free and I am going to take it, sit and read. There is nowhere else. I won't speak to you. If you are unhappy you will have to go."