Sharing tables in cafés

[Athenaviolet]

I'm genuinely not sure if IABU here.

I was in a cafe today. It was quite busy. Tbh if I'd known it was going to be busy I'd have gone elsewhere. My reason for going wasn't for the food & drink but for somewhere to sit to look up jobs on my phone, take notes etc. I wanted to sit for a couple of hours and it cost £6 for the privilege which I could do with not spending. There's tension in the house atm so don't feel comfortable there.

After I'd finished my sandwich but was still drinking my juice (in a transparent bottle so was obviously not finished) an older man came over to my table and asked if anyone was using the spare seats. I said no because that was the truth but it made me extremely uncomfortable him sitting next to me. I found it really hard to concentrate and left before I otherwise would have. (I have autistic traits so find 'social' situations difficult) I spent the next hour driving about in the rain.

Was he being unreasonable 'invading' my space? I was in his situation the other day and I just stood and waited for a free table. I think this is the polite thing to do.

Could I have said "please don't sit there while I'm still having my order"?

I'm very uncertain in these sort of social dilemmas. Imo when I'm paying (the extra) for a sit in meal part of what I'm paying for is 'the experience' of a table to sit in peace at. If I was just hungry I'd just go to a drive through.

Thanks for the videos, limited and Lurking. I have now done enough squirming to cover everyone on this thread for their next 17 coffee-shop dilemmas!

Gilrack I haven't stopped squirming since the gasman's visit.

I said, completely straight: 'Do you want to check all the radiators, including the one in my bedroom?'

He said: 'If you want me to.'

Me: 'Oh yes please.'

What I meant was that I really wanted him to check all the radiators (I'm not sure why they do that) but that the bedroom was a bombsite because I'd pulled all the furniture away from the walls because I'm about to paint and I'd also hurriedly stashed stuff in there in an effort to make the rest of the place look tidy.

He thought: 'She's a desperate menopausal woman who wants to get me into her bedroom'.

Anyway, he checked it and the flue in the back garden and I apologised for the obstacle course and the mess there too and the dodgy railing on the basement steps.

We had an awkward moment in the bedroom and then he left and I said: 'Thanks for visiting the Death Trap House, mind the dodgy railing on the way up the steps and of course, the man traps. Ha Ha.'

He looked alarmed and disgusted. I'm now convinced I'm on a British Gas watchlist of People Of Interest.

Why-oh-why did I say any of that? Especially the bit about the man traps

Thanks Icimoi

I can't remember the last time I travelled first class so hadn't realised that.

I certainly don't think anyone should actively prevent people in general from sitting next to them on public transport eg by putting their bag on the seat to prevent other people from sitting there. I appreciate that people might struggle with sharing personal space but when places get busy one really has no choice about following the social norms and letting others sit down if they ask.
What's not ok is to mock others for struggling with those personal space and boundary issues.

Testing my memory here. Can anyone else place this ? (I can, but call it a pop quiz).

"you're all muttering the same mantra in your heads ...

Double-seat, double seat, gotta getta double seat

You wait, the guard teases you. Will he open the gate now ? Will he walk by and back again ? Finally the gate opens, and you rush through. Knocking old ladies to one side. Walking sticks going flying. The crowd surges as one, and the passes by the first class carriages and pauses as one saying

"What is the point, they're always empty" as we press on...."

There's a line about a plastic dog turd, if it helps .

That was one of Ben Eltons rants on his Saturday night show(? can't remember the name of the show), I think?

What's not ok is to mock others for struggling with those personal space and boundary issues

That's interesting ILoveSooty.

Whenever there are threads about people putting bags on next-door seats on public transport, the agreement is that they are anti-social bastards.

mind the dodgy railing on the way up the steps and of course, the man traps.

ARGH!!!

Sorry, I realise you pointed that out, but I agree: what's the difference?

If that's what you mean.

I put my bag on the next door seat but will move it if I notice or if I don't, when asked.

limited I think it is antisocial behaviour to leave your bag on a chair actively to prevent someone from sitting down.

I meant that if someone says they struggle with issues of personal space it isn't kind to mock or disbelieve them. Unfortunately though in a busy would or crowded places people can't always have the space they'd like or feel they need without refusing seats to others who need them.

X post. No, I don't think people should leave their bags next to them on seats at all.

Well, I may be a silly sausage (though being called chick is new to me ) but I know that if I am sitting alone at a table for two or more the space over that other chair and part of the table is not my personal space and someone using it for the purpose for which it is intended is not invading my personal space. How far that person's space and mine extend is a function of how bulky each of us is and how close the chairs are - not of the personal preference or neurological condition of either of us. Just as you have less personal space in a standard-class seat on the train than in a first-class seat.

Because if you could have as much personal space as you "feel" you need you are taking somebody else's. And that somebody else may also "feel" entitled (and that's the word, isn't it?) to lots of personal space.

cuntycowfacemonkey You don't like "end of" but do you seriously disagree that if there is a customer who has just paid for a drink, no empty table, and an unoccupied chair at a part-occupied table, that customer can sit on that chair?

do you seriously disagree that if there is a customer who has just paid for a drink, no empty table, and an unoccupied chair at a part-occupied table, that customer can sit on that chair?

And this is why your posts, and others' similar ones, are being perceived as goady or bullying.

Not a single part of any post among the 238 currently on this thread has stated the other customer should stand up/leave/dance the fandango. Not one. There is a straw man in this coffee shop!

But a poster with an ASD can't be blamed for feeling abnormally upset about it. She merits understanding - and explanation, if helpful - not bigoted ranting or artificial authoritarianism.

I find that if you ask people to move a bag from a seat they huff and puff a bit, and take their time, but if you just stand and wait they move it.

But Gilrack look at the OP's question?

Was he being unreasonable 'invading' my space?

To which the answer is No. Just plain No. Whatever the OP's state of health. And it's not bigoted ranting or artificial authoritarianism to say so. We may understand how difficult that may be, and the position has been explained, I hope helpfully, but the answer to her question remains No - and if as happened she prefers to leave than to share the table, so be it, that is her choice and it's not the other customer's fault that she is out in the cold. Is it?

I don't think people should leave their bags next to them on seats at all.

But this is what I find weird. Maybe I've misunderstood.

Some people are saying it's okay for OP to dislike people sitting opposite her in a cafe but now you appear to be saying that you object to people putting their bags on seats next to them on public transport.

I do think it's okay to put bags on seats. It's not that I dislike sitting next to people, but more that I don't want my bag on the dirty floor and I don't want it creasing my skirt.

I'm quite meerkattish in watching out for people who want to sit down at new stops so usually move it before they have to ask. If I'm the one getting on I'd have no problem with asking someone to move their bag. Usually, they haven't noticed, though some people are anti-social.

I certainly don't understand people who are shy or affronted at having to say: 'Can I sit down please?'

I'm always amazed at people who claim they plonk their bottoms down on bags without even asking for them to be removed.

I've never seen that happen. If it happened to me, I'd be quite vociferous about it. It's needless rudeness and confrontation. Bit like the woman I mentioned earlier who'd jab people who annoyed her with a ski pole.

I know she existed but I doubt whether some of the MN seat warriors do.

Still shooting at that straw man, I see, Andrew. The cafe must be full of chaff by now Let me spell this out even more slowly.

Nobody ... has ... said ... the ... man ... was ... unreasonable.

You are fighting something that isn't there!

No Gilrack but the OP asked whether he was and lots of people have told her in many different ways that he wasn't!

I'll go against the grain here and say I don't think it's compulsory to share tables in a cafe. If a cafe is busy and lacks free tables, I would choose somewhere else, or wait for someone to leave. I wouldn't intrude on someone's personal space (unless it was one person at a large table).

Nor would I automatically share my small table (e.g. if it only had 2 or 3 seats). If someone asks to share my table and i'm not comfortable with it, I simply smile and say 'sorry I'm waiting for someone'. In my city centre, the popular Costa/Nero/Starbucks are notorious for men trying to pick up women, I've been approached numerous times by men wanting to share my table, who would then try to chat me up. IMO no woman should feel obliged to share her table with a male stranger who makes her feel uneasy.

If i'm enjoying a quiet drink or sandwich I also don't want to share a small table with someone's noisy children, especially if they're smearing food around or grabbing at things. And if I'm having a private conversation with a friend, we may not want anyone sitting with us and listening in... coffee bars and cafes aren't just for eating/drinking they're places to meet friends and chat. When my friend was going through a bad divorce we often met in coffee bars where she could offload (and sometimes have a good cry over her cappuccino) it wasn't appropriate to share a table with strangers. People are entitled to have private conversations. People might be discussing intimate problems, or on a first date/romantic lunch, or business colleagues having a working lunch. If you choose to buy a drink/meal in a busy cafe with no free tables, IMO you should expect to wait for a table to become free... the same way you would in a restaurant.

By the same token perhaps if you want to conduct intimate conversations and not share a table you should go to a restaurant rather than a cafe.

Lilac, a table to yourself gives you the illusion of a private conversation. Don't kid yourself that the people sat
behind and next to you can't hear what you're saying!

I really thought it was a generally understood convention of cafes/coffee shops that if no other space exists then you ask to share the least occupied table. If you want to guarantee a table to yourself then a restaurant is your answer.

LilacWine7 If I have bought my coffee I can obviously sit down and drink it unless every place is taken. If you and your friend are at a table for four and the other two seats are the only ones left . . . well see and my posts and others' posts ad nauseam.

As for gender: I will try to avoid sitting at a table where there is a woman on her own. But again, if that is the only table with a free seat that is where I will sit. I won't try try to chat her up.

It's not a restaurant and trying to apply restaurant rules just won't work.

By the same token perhaps if you want to conduct intimate conversations and not share a table you should go to a restaurant rather than a cafe

Why though? Why do you think people should squash up and share their small table with you in a cafe, yet you wouldn't do this in a restaurant?

Cafes and coffee bars offer a relaxed, intimate, comfortable environment to have private discussions with friends or enjoy some time alone. If I'm meeting a friend for coffee and a chat, we get there at a non-busy time and choose a small table in a quiet corner. If table had 3 seats and a stranger wanted to share with us, we would most likely say no, sorry, we're waiting for someone. We would also think it rather intrusive and odd that a stranger wants to eat/drink with us rather than wait for a table to become available.

If there are no free tables when you come to order, you have the option of finding somewhere less busy or asking for it to take away. Or waiting for a table to become free.

Of course the other thing people disagree on is whether it's ok to bag a table before buying food.

I think the only answer is to avoid busy cafes.

From the cafe owner's point of view, it is great if people hang around and use the wifi and have another coffee when the place is empty. However when a cafe is busy they will make more money if they can serve as many customers as possible, and people working at tables just take up space.

LilacWine7 I would call your bluff by sitting down and promising to stand up when the third arrived!

The would-be sharer wants the coffee while it is hot and may not have much time. If thre are two of you and you've chosen a three . . . oh ffs, others and I have said it time and again.

I really thought it was a generally understood convention of cafes/coffee shops that if no other space exists then you ask to share the least occupied table

Interesting. I have always considered it bad manners to ask to share someone's table (especially when they're eating or having a conversation). I appreciate it is not truly 'private' in a public place but it's difficult to have any kind of intimate discussion when there is a stranger sitting right next to you or opposite, able to hear every word.

Andrew what if the table only had 2 or 3 seats, would you still ask to share with a single female? I'm thinking of the little round or square tables in Costa that seat 2-3 max, with just enough room for one tray. I always say no if a man asks to share a small table with me. It feels too intimate and intrusive. When I was younger I used to share if asked, and found myself in many awkward situations where the man insisted on making conversation, usually then asking for my phone number or trying to persuade me to go on a date, at which point I would abandon my coffee and sandwich and leave. Nowadays I don't take the risk.