Pro-lifers - what would you do? *trigger warning*

[catcuriosity]

Not a thread about a thread, but obviously there have been a number of discussions on whether blanket bans on abortion are appropriate in this day and age, and a number of people both on and off line have come out in support of them.

I am just curious as to what a pro-lifer would do in this situation, and apologies if this is triggering to anyone.

Scan at 18 weeks reveals part of the baby's brain is damaged and that has impacted the normal development, including deformaties to the limbs and spine, which has a huge scoliosis. The bladder is also very enlarged, suggesting the baby cannot empty it itself, which could ultimately result in the bladder exploding.
More tests reveal that the brain damage has left the baby paralysed, and it would be unable to take its first breath after birth and would therefore die straight away, assuming it made it to term, which was below 50% liklihood.
The paralysis also meant there would be no fetal movement, and therefore no warning signs if the baby died in the womb. If that happened, there is an increased chance of infection (and risk to the mother's life) and also a high chance of no future pregnancies if infection left lasting damage.

And most importantly, doctors think baby's nervous system doesn't develop until 20-24 weeks, and therefore at 18 weeks, the baby can't feel any pain associated with the issues. After 24 weeks, the baby will be in constant chronic pain.

So, do you terminate or carry the pregnancy on?

If this is happening to you or has happened to you I am so so sorry

I am pro choice, I wouldn't have an abortion myself but that's because I'm fortunate enough to have never been in a situation as difficult as this or situations other women have been in. It's VERY RARE that women use abortion as a contraceptive choice so why people would be against abortion in these circumstances is lunacy.

If it is then apologies for my question, but you refer to "the mother" in the third person in your OP- so it is not clear if this is your pregnancy.

So sorry you are going through this, I don't think you are in Ireland but there is a group www.terminationformedicalreasons.com/ TMFR who are trying to have abortions in cases such are yours made legal here. I am giving you the link as they are people who have been through what you are going through and will know what other people think and say(especially your DH irish family) so may be able to help you in that way if that makes sense.

I am so sorry that you are having to deal with this situation and hope that you have lots of loving support in RL

I am very much pro-choice, however IME dealing with women how find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy from time to time in my professional life, even the most ardent pro-life supporter has not the first clue about what they'd feel or do unless they found themselves in your shoes.
I don't think any of us can comment in any way how we'd react and feel when confronted with what you have to deal with.

Wishing you all the strength in the world.

Lowry
I have guilt that my body failed this baby. My rational mind knows that I've been told my a number of fetal medicine specialists that this is nothing we did or didn't do, but I still blame myself to a degree.

cake I'm sorry if you've taken offence to me mentioning them being Irish, but the fact is that they are very much in favour of the laws of their country maintaining a blanket ban on abortion. We had conversations about it when that poor woman was being kept on a life support machine against her family's will because she was pregnant. They were in favour of that situation as well. The marriage referendum debates have also highlighted how many people are still very much in favour of kepeing the laws as they are.
Those laws would prevent me from having a termination ergo people supproting those laws are against me having a termination. It really isn't a pop at any nationality

propelusagain
It says very clearly this is the OP's own situation...
You could have read the thread rather than repeat the same question over and over

Propel RTFT

Well then the issue at hand is that they are pro life, not that they are Irish. There are plenty of pro lifers in the UK too. It is not an issue that they are Irish. Since you are in the UK i presume and hope you have access to the care you need.

I'm sorry if my first post seems harsh. I am a mother and I cannot imagine the pain you are feeling.

It is unpleasant to read constant generalisations about Irish people on this forum especailly when I would move heaven and earth to allow women access to the abortion.

catcuriosity, I understand. I didn't mean to come across like 'you should' feel xyz, I know it is not as simple as that and what you feel is valid and understandable. But if you are potentially facing some sort of judgement it is even easier to feel guilty, even though as you rationally know, it is not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong.

There are plenty of rabid 'pro-lifers' all over the world. And I wish they had a different moniker tbh - "forced pregnancy" does not sound quite so happy and positive, does it?

cakeface
Actually no, it is more than them being pro-life. They have no comprehension of the choices we have been offered by the hospital and therefore no concept of the thought process we have undertaken.

If we were living in Ireland (still), we would be having very different conversations with each other and with them, and it is difficult for them to understand how we have been so freely offered our options, just as they couldn't comprehend us being offer nuchal tests and then a follow-up amnio.
The beliefs of the catholic church and therefore the government are much more culturally significant in Ireland than in a lot of other countries.

bloody hell, you surely have to terminate here out of kindness and love for your child. You cant give them a life like that knowingly

"even the most ardent pro-life supporter has not the first clue about what they'd feel or do unless they found themselves in your shoes."

I really disagree with this, Pacific. You can't speak for everyone. I always knew that I would never have a termination. When I was offered one for my DC2, my first response was "No, that's not an option for us." Don't dismiss firmly held beliefs of others. It is just patronising to assume that pro-lifers are just theoretical pro-lifers!

cat, while I do hold "ardent" (to use Pacific's word) pro-life beliefs, if you were my friend telling me about this, you would receive nothing but care & compassion whatever your decision. It is a desperately sad and difficult decision and I hope that the people who disagree with your decision would be quiet & supportive of you in a time of such grief.

I hope you have some way, should you wish to, of recognising your baby, whether by naming them, having some sort of ceremony, something that recognises that this is your child whom you will love and remember for the rest of your life.

I consider myself to be pro life but given the situation you are in the thought of the baby being in pain from 24 weeks means that I would consider a termination.Please remember pro life does not mean at any cost and I am confident that your partner's family will support you both through this difficult decision.

What an awful situation for you

In terms of you wanting to understand the pro-life point of view, I think I would say that it is about viewing an unborn baby as you would any other human life i.e. making a call over their life is not your decision to make. (I say that not in a goady way, just trying to answer the question you wanted answering)

But that said, even the most hardened pro-lifer would not struggle to understand and empathise with your reasons for considering terminating.

As far as your DH's family go, being pro-life does not need to be synonymous with judging you, so I would hope they would treat you with nothing but love and compassion regardless of your decision. If they don't then they are just being heartless.

if you were my friend telling me about this, you would receive nothing but care & compassion whatever your decision. It is a desperately sad and difficult decision and I hope that the people who disagree with your decision would be quiet & supportive of you in a time of such grief.

Dino, why wouldn't you extend that compassion to a stranger?

Gosh I'm so sorry and I hope pandering to other's wishes doesn't get in the way of you making the decision you need to make for yourself and your health. I also hope you get the chance to grieve properly and don't take on other people's issues.

My mum was left seriously ill when the doctors in a catholic country pumped her full of steroids to stop her body from miscarrying a baby which had numerous complications - in this case it wasn't even pro life but baby above the life other mother. As it was she still lost the baby and was nearly infertile. Although I'm not pro-life I can accept people's disagreeing with abortions but in cases where they could cause harm to the mother, I believe they have absolutely no right to judge.

I would feel heartbroken in your situation. And I don't think I'd be asking for opinions on an anonymous Internet forum or mentioning previous distressing cases.

I would be surprised if this was helping you in any way but carry on if it is. And I don't mean that in a mean, goady way. God knows what I'd find helpful if I were you

so sorry, OP.

it is no-one's business but yours. And please remind yourself that this is NOTHING you or your body did - it is purely nature and it happens sometimes.

some women do choose to continue a pregnancy with a baby that will not survive. Some do not. There is no right or wrong. (Although I know what I would do in these circumstances - but I'm not you)

BTW no-one is 'anti-life'. But many are anti-choice. Hopefully you are in a country where you have the choice. YOUR choice.

I really disagree with this, Pacific. You can't speak for everyone. I always knew that I would never have a termination. When I was offered one for my DC2, my first response was "No, that's not an option for us." Don't dismiss firmly held beliefs of others. It is just patronising to assume that pro-lifers are just theoretical pro-lifers!

Dino, I think you misunderstood me and of course I was not even trying to speak for everybody, pro-life or otherwise.
What I was trying to say, maybe clumsily, is that IME people's minds can be changed when faced with this kind of an impossibly sad choice, not that it would always be changed.
I have seen women grieve over miscarriages of what was an unwanted pregnancy to start with and I have seen people very much against termination is situations in which they felt they had no other choice but to end a pregnancy.

I just find the label of 'pro-life' not very helpful. I am pro-life in the sense that I value the existing life of the woman in front of me. It is her life and her choice. And the choice she makes may mean continuing a pregnancy or not. I don't believe that I have any right to make that moral judgment for anybody else, much as I do reserve the right to make it for myself.

Re comments that pro-lifers see the life inside the womb as equal to that outside it - if a child already born was in this situation, I would imagine that 'treatment' would consist of making that child as comfortable and as pain-free as possible, which would likely involve large doses of drugs which would almost certainly hasten the end of life, and ultimately a situation where life support was switched off. No treatment because none would be possible, a priority on preventing pain, and ultimately the careful management of the end of life, because no other destination was possible.