Pro-lifers - what would you do? *trigger warning*

[catcuriosity]

Not a thread about a thread, but obviously there have been a number of discussions on whether blanket bans on abortion are appropriate in this day and age, and a number of people both on and off line have come out in support of them.

I am just curious as to what a pro-lifer would do in this situation, and apologies if this is triggering to anyone.

Scan at 18 weeks reveals part of the baby's brain is damaged and that has impacted the normal development, including deformaties to the limbs and spine, which has a huge scoliosis. The bladder is also very enlarged, suggesting the baby cannot empty it itself, which could ultimately result in the bladder exploding.
More tests reveal that the brain damage has left the baby paralysed, and it would be unable to take its first breath after birth and would therefore die straight away, assuming it made it to term, which was below 50% liklihood.
The paralysis also meant there would be no fetal movement, and therefore no warning signs if the baby died in the womb. If that happened, there is an increased chance of infection (and risk to the mother's life) and also a high chance of no future pregnancies if infection left lasting damage.

And most importantly, doctors think baby's nervous system doesn't develop until 20-24 weeks, and therefore at 18 weeks, the baby can't feel any pain associated with the issues. After 24 weeks, the baby will be in constant chronic pain.

So, do you terminate or carry the pregnancy on?

People you love shoiuld support you regardless. There is no "right" choice in these circumstances. You will feel awful whatever I imagine. Please let us know how you are as decisions are made and things progress. Wishing you so many virtual hugs right now xx

I think those against abortion might well carry on in that situation. It might even be possible to give the baby something to stop its pain - there are procedures you can do whilst a baby is still in the womb for a number of conditions.

Tracey do you think that pregnant women should be denied a legal abortion, whatever the circumstances, because of what you believe?

I can't believe in this day and age people think that they can decide what happens to a woman's body and send us back to the dark ages of the only option being illegal abortions.

I'm so sorry you and your partner find yourself in this position.

Given the very poor outlook for the baby, and the risk to you, I think I would terminate. And I would try not to think of it as a termination, more of a bringing forward the inevitable. (This is me, I'm not telling you to feel this way).

I will say that you should feel no guilt. The development of an embryo to a baby is such a complicated thing, and things do go wrong. It's neither your fault nor failure. It's a tragedy for all concerned. I hope you can find your way through this, my thoughts are with you both.

OP, I'm so sorry that you are facing this awful situation and so very sorry that your baby is so unwell. I'm pro life but I could not feel anything other than compassion and sadness for those involved in making such a decision. For me, you are making the only decision in the circumstances that will prevent your child suffering. If people are so blinkered that they cannot put their beliefs aside to see that you are acting out of deep compassion and love then I think they should seriously reassess their own faith. If you don't think they're going to be supportive do you both feel that you have to tell them the truth at this point. Purely to protect yourselves from dealing with them at the same time as your own grief? Thinking of you and wishing you nothing but Love, peace and support.

I'm mostly pro life, but also think there are some circumstances in which an abortion is the kindest thing to do. If there was no risk to the mother's health I wouldn't have an abortion and would let nature take it's course. If the risk to the mother was small then I would possibly still carry on with the pregnancy. It's hard to say for sure. If the risk is high then I would have an abortion. But that's my personal opinion based on the fact that I would know how badly an abortion would effect ME. Others will cope better with a decision like that and none of us are right or wrong.

TRacy- so you don't believe in the pill or coil either?

Just caught up with your posts OP, in that situation I wouldn't tell the family that you've had a termination. Simply that, as they know, the baby was very ill and nature took its course.

I know it's dishonest. But you just don't need the questions and the further distress of people questioning your decision. DP's family aren't physically here, a fudging of the truth will do no harm, and ultimately, it's your business.

Oh Goodness me, op. I am so sorry you have been given such terrible news. You never expect it do you. You think you're going to go for the scan and cry tears of joy rather than dispair that everything is fine.
On to WWID. Not much help here op but I think I'd hVd to be in that situation to enable me to answer. Have you not been offered counselling.
Some would say say it's unfair to bring a child into the world if it's just going to suffer. Some would disagree and say, where there's life there's hope, and some would say that God is sending you precious little bAby for a reason.
. We're all here for you. What ever decision you come to.

cat so sorry you are going through this

I discovered I was pro-life when my DD was born with Down Syndrome. She was diagnosed post birth, so I honestly don't know what i would have done had I had to choose.

Having said that, I firmly believe that the choice to terminate is a personal one, and that every woman should be allowed to make their own decision.

To answer your specific question, what would I do? I draw the line on whether the baby's condition would be compatible with life, and in your case it very sadly doesn't sound as if it is.

As to what to tell Dh parents, I agree with what others have said and don't disclose the details. You are going through enough pain without having to explain/justify to other people.

Once again, I am so sorry x

If there is one thing Irish families do well, it is keeping 'shameful' secrets and telling lies about what happensd to babies, and the timing of marriages and births.

Just don't tell them. The baby was ill, nature took its course, it was very distressing and we don't want to discuss.

Then you'll have the 'sorry for your troubles' response, you say 'thank you' and no one speaks about it any more.

I have met people who are devoutly religious and those who are pro life and wont be swayed from their viewpoints no matter what. Thankfully the world is beginning to change and most are letting go of some of the more extreme opinions and viewpoints. You might, sadly, encounter some of these people once they find out you aborted the baby, if that is what you choose to do. It is up to your DH to speak to his family if you ultimately decide to go down this road. You will need every ounce of strength to get through this period in your lives and these people, if you do encounter them, will drag you down and try to make you feel ashamed and guilty. Surround yourself with people who will love and support you. Only you two, as the parents, know what is the right course of action in the circumstances. We on mumsnet will be here with words of comfort and support when the going gets tough.

I'm so sorry for what you are going through. For me it's the baby's pain that would be the deciding factor. I personally would see it as the biggest self-sacrifice and sign of parental devotion that you cut short your time of being pregnant to save them from that. You will always be their mum and dad in my eyes.
In a lot of eyes he/she will never have properly existed and you won't have given them a chance. And there is no coherent, reasoned argument that you can apply to change that.
You have to let go of worrying about those other people. You need to work out who will support and nurture you. It's going to be so very hard and my heart goes out to you. Stuff other people and concentrate on yourself - your seeming calmness and logical approach suggests a huge malestrom underneath. If there's counselling available go for it. Both of you.

Oh, cat I'm so sorry you and your dh are going through this. I totally get that you feel as though your body has let you down - even though it hasn't.

My situation is the same as Iwantcontrolofcarmusic my dd2 was born with Down's and I actively chose not to have an amino after the nuchal scan as I knew I couldn't terminate. However, your baby will not live and will be in pain, as well as some considerable risk to you. I think you let your dh tell them whatever you decide. You could tell them you miscarried as the baby was so ill.

for you all.

I have been given very bad news three times OP. Horrible, horrible situation.

What I will say though that in my own experiences and others' in the same situation we found that the doctors were extremely negative; and almost pushing for termination. I am pro life for myself but think that everyone needs to decide for themselves.

I know several people who proceeded with pregnancies that were deemed "unviable" and that the baby would be severely disabled and have no quality of life. Obviously this is the case sometimes, but not always. Doctors often give the worst case scenario without balancing it with the "good" cases.

My heart goes out to you OP at this time x

Thank you everyone. I'm so overwhelmed with the messages of support and the total honesty with which everyone has responded. The pro-life responses have been an insight for me, even though I still can't really get my head around that way of thinking, and I really appreciate people taking the time to share their experiences which can't be easy.

In the interests of full disclosure, our decision on what to do was made up before I started this thread - which was prompted by reading the Irish abortion laws thread currently running, while getting a text from my SIL saying she was praying for me and for a happy outcome (despite knowing the facts of the situation mean there is zero chance of that, even allowing for a doctor making a mistake).

But everything I have read today makes me believe our decision to terminate is 100% the right one for our baby, and the kindest possible thing we can do in the circumstances. It also gives us the best chance of one day having another go, and hopefully be the parents we know we can be if given the chance.

Thanks again for your wonderful kind words. I really didn't envisage this thread going in this direction, or ending up being something that has been so supportive, when I suspected it would be more of a bunfight. MN at its finest...

Wishing you strength and love on the way forward, cat.
You will be in my thoughts.

I wouldn't tell anyone the details. It's no ones business except your own. TBH I wouldn't tell anyone regardless of their views on abortion. Not because of any embarrassment or 'shame' but simply because I wouldn't want to discuss it.

I'm so sorry for what you are going through. It must be very difficult.

Lots of and sympathies for anyone who has been in this type of situation.

I don't think AIBU is a good place for this thread. OP, do you think it might be best moved?

I am pro-life and a catholic. The scenario you describe is untenable. The baby is not going to live, so it is just a question of when rather than if. I would totally understand and respect your decision to terminate. Although i respect anyone elses choice actually so the prolife thing only applies to me - i would definately terminate. So sorry for you :(

I'm sorry OP

I am very pro choice and would terminate I think. If this was me then I would not let the baby suffer a second longer than it had to if it was going to feel pain in the womb. I would want the baby to be free of pain as soon as possible. Of course I am not saying that is how anyone else should feel, but I believe I would terminate before any pain has the possibility to be felt.

For me it's the baby's pain that would be the deciding factor. I personally would see it as the biggest self-sacrifice and sign of parental devotion that you cut short your time of being pregnant to save them from that.

This says it beautifully.

I agree with the people that said that if you do terminate there is no reason why you have to tell people if you are worried about their reactions.

My heart goes out to you xxxx

How awful for you OP - I can't imagine any decent person could judge you at all for making such a hard decision to spare your baby suffering. Anyone who does is an insensitive idiot.

I'm pro choice in the sense that I believe in legal abortion, but on a personal level I believe it should be a decision that is not taken lightly and is a last resort. Which is obviously the case here. Wishing you strength during this horrible time

It seems like many people get confused between what pro- life and pro choice is.

If you think termination should be illegal and you want the option taken away from women you are pro life. Although I don't think the term pro life fits.. usually it's pro foetus.

No matter what you would or wouldn't do yourself, if you think women should be able to have the legal right to terminate you are pro choice.

OP I don't have any experience in what you are going through but I just want to say my thoughts and prayers are with you, your partner and your baby.

cake I have to say I am absolutely disgusted to see someone turn such an emotive thread which must have been incredibly difficult for the OP to write, into an opportunity to have a go about the OP's wording and the 'difference between being catholic and religious'. I think you probably knew what she was meaning but just couldn't resist having to put your two cents in. Terrible.