Pro-lifers - what would you do? *trigger warning*

[catcuriosity]

Not a thread about a thread, but obviously there have been a number of discussions on whether blanket bans on abortion are appropriate in this day and age, and a number of people both on and off line have come out in support of them.

I am just curious as to what a pro-lifer would do in this situation, and apologies if this is triggering to anyone.

Scan at 18 weeks reveals part of the baby's brain is damaged and that has impacted the normal development, including deformaties to the limbs and spine, which has a huge scoliosis. The bladder is also very enlarged, suggesting the baby cannot empty it itself, which could ultimately result in the bladder exploding.
More tests reveal that the brain damage has left the baby paralysed, and it would be unable to take its first breath after birth and would therefore die straight away, assuming it made it to term, which was below 50% liklihood.
The paralysis also meant there would be no fetal movement, and therefore no warning signs if the baby died in the womb. If that happened, there is an increased chance of infection (and risk to the mother's life) and also a high chance of no future pregnancies if infection left lasting damage.

And most importantly, doctors think baby's nervous system doesn't develop until 20-24 weeks, and therefore at 18 weeks, the baby can't feel any pain associated with the issues. After 24 weeks, the baby will be in constant chronic pain.

So, do you terminate or carry the pregnancy on?

I am pro choice so sorry for butting in where you have asked for opinions from pro lifers. But I just wanted to say I am so so sorry to hear of your situation, I am 21 weeks pregnant and cannot imagine having to face this heartbreaking decision. However I am sure I would terminate - I understand people who wish to give birth to their babies even when they know they may only have minutes or hours with them - because they will be such precious times. But I could not bear to think that from 24 weeks my baby would be in pain at a time that he/she is supposed to be safest. I am a strong believer in euthanasia under the correct conditions and to me this is exactly what that is - we don't let animals suffer so why on earth do we let humans suffer. I am not saying by the way that everyone should be allowed to euthanase - but when done legally and in a controlled environment I strongly believe it should be allowed.

With regards to telling your husband's family, whether I would tell them the truth would depend on how much I felt I could cope with any backlash. I find it fairly hard to imagine that anyone would criticise your decision given the description of your baby's problems but if you really think they will and you can't deal with that then I would just say that the baby was very poorly and did not survive. Then say you don't want to talk about it.

My heart goes out to you and your husband, you are very strong to be dealing with this and I hope that time is a healer for you.

Just no I wasn't aiming it at you, sorry . People sharing their own experiences is fine, it's people sharing their brother's hairdresser's cousin's experience and usually getting the details wrong that bothered me. One random stranger went on to me about how she knew all about cleft lips because her friend's great grandson had one. She told me all this stuff about this baby she'd never met before I worked out that her friend was my granddad so it was my DS she was talking about (and getting all the details wrong).

I just want you to know how sorry I am that you are facing this. I was in a similar position; our daughter had multi cystic dysplastic kidneys, a condition "not compatible with life". We knew there was a problem at just 6 weeks but we waited as long as we possibly could to see if anything might change, or in case the (many) doctors were wrong.

They weren't. At 17 weeks we received "final confirmation" that she wouldn't survive, so we chose to end the pregnancy. Although it ended terribly, I don't regret for a second waiting like we did. If I could have my time again I would probably not have a surgical intervention but rather wait until she died naturally. I wish I had given birth to her, even though she would already have died.

I'm Christian and always feel uneasy about choosing surgical intervention, even though we were extensively counseled by and supported by our priest. We had a service and scattered her ashes, too, which helped.

If you ever want to talk, PM me. Whatever decision you make will be the right one.

NI Lucy? They're definitely there.

TheBabyFacedAssassin you are right, it is uniquely torturous and I too wouldn't wish it on anyone. Ten weeks of agony.

Love and healing to all of us who have dealt with this particular horror.

I'm under a name change at the moment so I'll be honest.

I am 99% pro life although I don't make this public knowledge and I don't force my opinions on anyone. The only other person who knows my views on the subject is DP. I think it is wrong to terminate a normal healthy pregnancy.

But in your situation, I would terminate. The deciding factor for me, would be that the baby would be in pain.

I'm so sorry that you and your DH are going through this. I can't begin to imagine how you must be feeling right now. Thinking of you op xxx

No I'm not in NI Bumbly.

I've been a whisker away from a similar position OP and my heart goes out to you. I would terminate but whatever you do I am thinking of you and hoping you have plenty of RL support x

IMO whoever mentioned upthread about the difference between pro-life being a private conviction or a legislation is often overlooked in these discussions.

I am of the strong conviction that every women has the right to absolute bodily autonomy and to make choices regarding what happens to her body and this includes the termination of pregnancy. I am glad to live in a country where that right is protected in law.

Privately, I thank my lucky stars that I have never been in a position in which I had to exercise that right. I know I would struggle with terminating a pregnancy, healthy or not. I can entirely imagine situation in which in all likelihood I would've terminated, but I would have found it very hard to do and I am relieved that entirely by dumb luck I never had to make that choice.

I also think there's is difference between being 'pro-life' and being Pro-Life - IME some of the more radical and outspoken Pro-Lifers presume to decide for everybody else what is Right and what is Wrong, and that is something I object to strongly.

Justus

Strength to you too, VacantExpression.

Fair enough Lucy - the 'bible worshipping men' made me think that!

cat I haven't yet been moved to post on mumsnet but I couldn't let your post pass by. I'm so very sorry for your situation.

I'd neither categorise myself as pro life or pro choice, and I've not been in your situation, so not much good to you. However I am a Christian, and I also carry a genetic disorder which if passed on would mean very not good things for my potential child. My great grandmother had three such children (we assume same disorder), and all three died in early childhood. There is not the complicating risk to maternal health or constant pain to the child that you describe. My great grandmother was a Christian and married to a church leader; according to my grandfather (her son) she would have terminated her children had the option been available. Apparently she told my grandad that had she known she would have not had any children.

I have only a risk of 1/16-1/20 per pg of a child inheriting that disorder, but that was enough for me to decide I would not be able to bear children naturally. The deciding factor for me was the thought of looking that child in the eye as they went through surgery after surgery without being able to understand why, and trusting me implicitly, while all the while I would know I had chosen that life for them. A few years after I made the decision not to have biological children, we found out about IVF PGD and went down that route instead.

That is a decision I struggle with daily. I feel on the defensive with Christian friends as I suspect them of judging me, but i do share the choice we made as I feel it's important to do so. I also struggle to feel peace in the decision, I don't know whether we did right by God or not, and I wouldn't want to speak for him.

However this is how I process our decision and I hope (although doubt) that if I did encounter a vehemently pro life person in RL I would be able to share some of this.

Through my experiences within the online community for my particular condition, I have begun to believe that it is possible & indeed most likely that there is not a blanket rule regarding these situations, but that God works with each of us as individuals, taking into account our circumstances. I believe he speaks into our hearts and guides us via the holy spirit, taking into account everything else within our lives & his knowledge of the future.

No one I know has ended a pregnancy flippancy and all of them have done so out of love.

I know women who are loving and devoted parents - a level of love & devotion I can't fathom, personally - and yet still say that they would terminate in the same situation again. Equally I have seen women carry to term & have babies much healthier than expected.

God himself in the form of Jesus was intimately involved with suffering and took pains to end physical suffering when asked to do so, in a way that was above & beyond his 'call of duty'. It seems to have been of great importance to him and he displayed a lot of compassion for those suffering. He himself took on terrible suffering in order to ease our suffering. In that way I think he could be compared to a parent who chooses to take on the guilt and sadness of termination so that their child doesn't suffer.

Through the online community, I have seen pro lifers terminate, and I have seen pro choicers refuse all testing. This makes me realise that I can never know what I will do unless I am faced with that decision.

It really bugs be that on this thread there are people commenting that you should terminate - pro choice should be just that, open minded & supportive. If one is pro abortion then don't claim to be pro choice. The choice should be the parents, and nobody else's. Guilting somebody into terminating is as bad as guilting somebody into carrying to term.

Good luck OP and much, much luck. I'm glad you have made a decision you seem comfortable with, and I pray that things go better than expected with your in laws. Good luck :-)

what a wonderful post.

Those of you who say you are 'pro life' but would terminate in this situation are not 'pro life', you are pro choice. You may have limited choices but you are still pro choice.

OP

My cousin had a similar decision to make, her baby had no brain and no chance of more than a couple of days of life, she terminated.

My 'pro life' mother just couldn't accept this, she insisted to her death that her niece had miscarried because in her head abortion is evil and her niece wasn't evil so she couldn't have done it.

If my mother was in the situation my cousin was in she would have continued the pregnancy and 'prayed for a miracle'.

If she were still alive and I showed her this post her first thought would be, well she wouldn't think highly of you, I won't write what it would be and her second thought would be' "how can she even consider it, that's her baby" the baby being in pain would not change her mind.

I am so sorry you are in this situation OP and there is no way of knowing what stance your relatives will take.

Also being RC and Irish does not automatically make you 'pro life'.

In my experience of some 'pro life' people it is the words 'abortion' and 'termination' that trigger the nasty responses, if you describe it as a 'managed miscarriage' then that is OK.

And before anyone jumps on me, that is my experience, my mother was a member of SPUC (OP DO NOT GOOGLE SPUC).

Kittymum03

The RC church stance is that surgery for ectopic pregnancy is fine. Not sure if you care about, that but as they are so against abortion it is fairly safe to say ectopic pregnancy surgery and abortion are seen as two very different things.

You did not kill your baby, your baby would have died regardless of your op.

Your baby was probably dead by the time you had your op.

We don't let things be, we all take medicine when we are ill, we go to the dentist and brush our teeth. In the past many of us would have died from having bad teeth, but we don't need to die so we take precautions that keep us alive.

"You may have limited choices but you are still pro-choice"

Not really Sashh - the name 'pro-choice' implies that you agree with a woman's choice regardless of what it is and when it is made. Not just if it ties in with conditions you think are acceptable. These are the issues you have when there is such a wide spectrum of beliefs and you try to put them in two boxes. I think it is possible for people to consider themselves more on the pro-life end of the spectrum which is what many people are basically saying. I think you have the idea that someone pointed out up thread that to be pro-life you have to be Pro-Life.

Kitty,

kitty.

Please please don't feel badly at all about surgery to remove ectopic. That pregnancy had no chance of ever reaching a viable stage. If you had surgery it means it was necessary to make sure you didn't lose part of your reproductive system or worse.

You made the right choice - for you, and for all the people in your life, whoever they might be, who would miss you so dreadfully if you weren't here.

Hope you have RL support. again.

Kitty - I am so sorry for how you feel. An ectopic pregnancy, as I am sure you know logically, has no chance of survival. It is developing in the wrong place. It won't develop enough to feel pain. It is really no different than the very many eggs that fertilise but dont' implant as the result of nature. Or the many that sadly miscarry early on. What you did was necessary to prevent risk to your own life. I am pro-choice, but that isn't a termination. I don't know anyone, even the most ardent pro-lifers, who would say it was.

I am pro-life but not at any cost.

If I were in your terribly sad situation I would terminate. You are a parent already and have to make difficult decisions over what is best for your child. This is far and above what most people have to deal with, but in putting your child first you don't have to answer or justify it to anyone.

Love and sympathy to you and your family.

kitty - you poor thing and your poor mum. I won't be too harsh about how she's making you feel but I would say that it seems like her experiences have left her mixed up about pregnancy and unable to see your situation clearly.

You did not have a termination. You've been through enough suffering. Please be kind to yourself.