Pro-lifers - what would you do? *trigger warning*

[catcuriosity]

Not a thread about a thread, but obviously there have been a number of discussions on whether blanket bans on abortion are appropriate in this day and age, and a number of people both on and off line have come out in support of them.

I am just curious as to what a pro-lifer would do in this situation, and apologies if this is triggering to anyone.

Scan at 18 weeks reveals part of the baby's brain is damaged and that has impacted the normal development, including deformaties to the limbs and spine, which has a huge scoliosis. The bladder is also very enlarged, suggesting the baby cannot empty it itself, which could ultimately result in the bladder exploding.
More tests reveal that the brain damage has left the baby paralysed, and it would be unable to take its first breath after birth and would therefore die straight away, assuming it made it to term, which was below 50% liklihood.
The paralysis also meant there would be no fetal movement, and therefore no warning signs if the baby died in the womb. If that happened, there is an increased chance of infection (and risk to the mother's life) and also a high chance of no future pregnancies if infection left lasting damage.

And most importantly, doctors think baby's nervous system doesn't develop until 20-24 weeks, and therefore at 18 weeks, the baby can't feel any pain associated with the issues. After 24 weeks, the baby will be in constant chronic pain.

So, do you terminate or carry the pregnancy on?

I don't want to this to get goady, and am incredibly grateful for the supportive posts (and posters who are sticking up for me) but the inconsistencies around a pro-life definition are interesting to me. Partly because I had assumed that people who define themselves 'strictly pro-life' are always anti-abortion. Clearly this isn't the case, and the only poster who seems to have this position is skeeter, who seems to be coming at it only from a place of not believing not believing the doctor that the baby would be in pain and then die, rather than thinking it would be wrong even if that situation.

In a strange way, seeing all the inconsistencies has given me more comfort that we won't be judged as badly as I thought, because their beliefs might not be as black and white as they would have me believe.

I am glad an exploration of what pro-life means has been helpful to you catcuriosity- and wish you well in the coming weeks and months. X

Cat - if discussion of the definition is helpful to you, what I would say is that a lot of people who self define as pro - life mean that they would not terminate. Or that other people should only be permitted to terminate in very restrictive circumstances. Only a very small subset actually believe no one else should , even in circumstances like yours. Many people who self define as pro life would understand and be compassionate towards your decision, and may even make it themselves.

Again. I am so sorry.

I don't understand why you need to tell your relatives?

for you, Cat. I am so sorry to hear what you are going through. I am pro choice, but the only story I can offer you is that of some friends - pro choice atheist married to catholic, who found their child had a problem which left her with about a 1% chance of survival. They carried the baby to term - but only because, as my friend said, they knew she was not suffering - she was fine in utero, and there was a 1% chance she would live. (Sadly, she did not). My friend was in no doubt that had she thought her daughter would suffer, she would have terminated, and her catholic husband said that even though in an ideal world he would prefer her not to have an abortion, she was the one carrying the pregnancy so she got to make the decision, and he would support her whatever decision she made.

I agree with those up thread who suggest that letting your family believe you've miscarried naturally may be the best option. Had I ever been in your position, that's certainly what I would have done with some of my very religious, anti-abortion friends.

cat - Have you had a look at some of the perinatal hospice websites?

cat, every one of your posts is so considered and you sound so 'together' in what must be such a heart-wrenching, emotional time for you. I have huge respect for you and the way you are walking this hardest of paths and I am glad that some of the discussion on here has been of some small measure of comfort to you

Agree with Pacific

The inconsistencies are partly why this issue is such a difficult and entrenched one here in Ireland. There is every hue of opinion on who, when, what circumstances etc. there is resentment that the term pro life has been hijacked and used as a high moral ground by the most extreme end of the opinion spectrum.

OP I hope your in laws will be kind. For me if I thought my child would be safe in my womb I might carry to term if only to get the chance to hold her, however briefly. But where even that is not possible there really is no good in holding on x

I'm so so sorry op.

I'm so sorry OP.

I'm Irish, pro-choice, and my mother would be staunchly pro-life in any and all circumstances. In your case, I think I'd go ahead with TFMR like you planned with your DH, and tell the family that you went into premature labour. Losing your baby is so private, so personal to you both, you are under no obligation to tell anyone what you both have agreed.

Wishing you strength.

Im pro choice but i just wanted to offer you the biggest hug and ive given on mumsnet x

Having read a post up thread describing what is meant by pro life, I now realise that I'm not necessarily pro life. I find abortion a very emotive and difficult subject, but in some circumstances it may be needed.

I'm so sorry about your little baby, Cat, what a heartbreaking situation. I would very much hope that nobody, whatever their beliefs, would be judging you at this time.

I consider myself pro-life in that I believe life begins at conception and believe that babies in utero should have the same rights as children after birth. One of my pregnancies ended spontaneously in the second trimester, due to a severe birth defect incompatible with life - anencephaly, where the baby's skull and majority of the brain fail to develop. Baby also had other problems. We didn't have to make a decision about the pregnancy as our baby's heart had stopped beating before diagnosis. But since then I have spoken to quite a few women who made the decison to terminate following the same diagnosis, and one who carried to term. I can't honestly tell you what I would have done and I don't honestly think anyone knows until they are in that situation. I do know that all the women I have spoken to made that decision out of love for their baby and a wish to prevent suffering. I know that they loved and wanted their babies and grieve for them.

I think that in your situation, the suffering would bother me. I would want to know what could be done medically to alleviate the baby's suffering, just as if they were ill outside the womb. I'm not naive about this, I know that it might not be possible to eliminate suffering completely. but I would want to know the answers.

I am also Catholic. I converted as an adult and interestingly I held pro-life views before I joined the Catholic church. It isn't necessarily linked to religious belief for me. But I do know that in catholicism, there is a "principle of secondary effect" - it may sound technical - but basically, if you take action to save the mother's life, or action to alleviate suffering, and the secondary effect is the death of the baby, that is permissible by the church. So in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, removal of the tube can be permissible if it threatens to rupture (the action is taken to save the mother's life) but drug treatment to end the pregnancy is not permissible (the action in that case is taken to end the baby's life). I'm aware that it will sound ridiculous to most people reading this but I wonder if it might be something your family will be aware of and relate to?

What you tell your family is entirely up to you. To say "we lost the baby" is not a lie. To say "the baby was born early and was too poorly to survive" is not a lie. But you may feel more comfortable telling a more detailed truth - because you should not have to hide it.

You are making an incredibly difficult decision, a heartbreaking one - there can be no outcome that isn't terrible. Nobody has any right to judge and whilst I do call myself pro-life, I absolutely don't feel morally superior or feel that I have any right to tell you whether your decision is right or wrong. I would be very surprised if your family judged you, and wouldn't think much of them if they were anything but supportive at the moment.

Lovely post littlejohnnydory. Sorry for the loss of your baby

I'm so confused by this post.

OP wants an insight into pro-life and people are saying this isn't a thread for that discussion.

I am 100% certain the OP appreciates the sympathy messages but she started this because she WANTED insights/views/opinions... No?

Anyway, pro-life is confusing me. Surely you can't be pro-life but also believe in some circumstances it's okay? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?

I am largely pro-life in my head ( although I would never force my own stance on anyone). I used to scan babies to date them before terminations and I was the first and last person to see the healthy babies kicking around in he womb. I think most people would become pro-life if they did it for long enough. I had To stop doing it for my own sanity when I became pregnant myself.
But still for medical problem I am most definitely be pro-choice.
I suspect most of the posters on here are not the ops target audience though.

ragingjellybean - The issue is that a lot of people see pro-life, as terminology, to mean 'broadly I am opposed to termination'. Or even, in some cases 'I would never terminate but I wouldn't try to force my choice on others'. It doesn't necessarily have a clearly defined meaning.

To me, prolife means 'I am against legalised abortion being available for anyone, no matter what the circumstances'.

To me, pro life and pro choice have nothing to do with what you would choose yourself, and everything to do with what you would legislate for others. But not everyone defines the terminology in that way.

OP wants opinions, sure, but this isn't an abstract debate thread, its her life, her baby, her termination. Its not the place to argue terminology and theology.
Give opinions, but with sensitivity and remembering that this is real life and not just words on a screen.

Penguins when you put it like that most people on here are probably pro- choice when it comes down to it. I massively disagree with any legislation when it comes to interfering with a woman's autonomy with her own body.
I would like to think that even the most extreme pro- lifers might be turned by the op's story. But probably not as a lot of comes down to their strongly held religious beliefs which are generally not for turning.

Although equally you could argue that pro-choice is a misnomer because most people identifying as pro-choice respect a woman's choice as long as it meets certain criteria. Eg up to a certain point in pregnancy/for certain conditions. Most are not pro-choice for any reason at any stage. There are extremes at both ends of a very wide spectrum.

Anyway, it is an interesting discussion but it doesn't seem right on this thread.

A lot of people are pro life until it happens to them. I was one of those. My heart goes out to you xx

Baby I know where you are in the UK and I totally sympathise as remember your previous posts. God knows they were heart wrenching and I hope you are as ok as you can be?

Op I hope you too get the care and help you need.

Life isn't about positions is it? It's about a reality that confronts us, sometimes when we least expect it.

My ideal would be that pregnant women should be able to access whatever help they need and make any decision they see fit for them during their pregnancy without regard for anyone else's opinion or judgment.

Pro women's life choices.

cat - im so very sorry for the situation you and your dh are in. If it was me, I would have to terminate. I couldn't bear the thought of the baby being in chronic pain. simply heartbreaking. my thoughts are with you both whatever you decide to do.