Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Irish abortion laws

999 replies

crumpet · 23/05/2015 16:38

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 21:29

Didn't say it 'wasn't about choice'. I said it's not as simple as it just being about choice.

LucyBabs · 24/05/2015 21:38

Well I still disagree bumbly because its all about choice and it is simple. I would never tell another human being what to do with their body and I certainly would never force someone to be pregnant or give birth.

Twasthecatthatdidit · 24/05/2015 21:40

I am an Irish woman who has had an abortion and was pregnant at the time of savita's death undergoing ongoing monitoring in the fetal abnormality unit, contemplating what I would do if the amnio showed the wrong results. If you're alienating the likes of me in the way you're conducting your argument - apparently one of the oppressed "less than human" women - I really think you're going to struggle with the rest of the population.
OP, the way this thread has gone, with the fairly bad tempered debating amongst people you might think on the same side, provides a good answer to why it would have been madness for the yes campaigners into the debate. It is a hugely more morally complex issue, and one where there is much more division.

bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 21:44

Well, you are entitled to your opinion but plenty of people don't agree that it's 'simple'.

LucyBabs · 24/05/2015 21:52

Are you talking about the feotus,zygote, embryo having the same rights as the pregnant woman? Then yes its not so simple, when there are people in the world who have this opinion.

Or is it that abortion harms women? yes I've heard this before. I've also heard how no proper access to safe abortion harms women. How forced birth through c section (14 year old girl recently in ireland) harms women.

bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 22:04

Yes, it's all about the woman's choice. These little humans are completely insignificant as long as they are inside her. It's sooooo simple. Hmm

Irish abortion laws
Anniegetyourgun · 24/05/2015 22:04

Oh my word, it's turned into another bumbleymummy special. Abandon thread, everyone. And fgs don't mention c-sections - argh, too late...

bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 22:05

Grow up Annie. I've hardly posted and I wouldn't have bothered if Lucy hasn't addressed me directly.

BertrandRussell · 24/05/2015 22:08

Don't you just love SPUC?

Any more picture and poems, bumbleymummy? I've got lots I could send you if you haven't.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 24/05/2015 22:09

Annie, you should know by now that any thread with the word abortion in the title is like manna from heaven for her. Hence my avoiding them now, given the way she treated BFA and a few other posters who shared their experiences. Anti-vaxxer as well iirc? Bleah

JustAScreenName · 24/05/2015 22:12

I want to see the 8th amendment repealed, and safe, legal access to abortion in Ireland. I fully understand that Ireland's track record on women's health care, including around childbirth, has at times demonstrated a disregard for the wishes and well-being, and in some cases the personhood, of women. Most of the horror stories are from previous generations, but I know from first-hand experience that the maternity services aren't perfect here and could be improved in some areas. And I cried with sympathy and with anger over what happened to Savita, as many many people in this country did.

So this is not me saying that Ireland's current legal prohibition on abortion is fine, or that women aren't disproportionately disempowered by the medical establishment here, as women are elsewhere.

But I am just wondering, from the tone of some previous posts and the comments about the extreme fear some people apparently felt about the prospect of giving birth in Ireland, whether those on this thread are aware that Ireland has a lower maternal death rate than the UK? This is true even after having adopted the same classification system used in Britain, which is more comprehensive than the system previously used (in that it includes indirect and coincidental causes of death for pregnant and post-partum women - like epilepsy, flu and road accidents - as well as deaths linked directly to pregnancy and birth, like pulmonary embolism and uterine rupture). The maternal deaths per 100,000 are (thankfully) in the single digits for both countries for the past several years, and in most years Ireland has fewer.

The facts about the relative safety of giving birth in Ireland vs. the UK don't really jibe with the image being painted on this thread of the UK being a place of safety to flee to if you don't want the "risk" associated with giving birth in Ireland. You'd be every bit as safe if not safer here, apparently. But sure don't let the facts get in the way of your assumptions about your "backward" neighbours to the west.

The timing of this and other threads during the weekend where we in Ireland have collectively taken an enormous step for progress and justice, is grating. We have gone further than the UK or any other country in the World in asserting the equality of our gay citizens - not just by passing legislation but by amending our constitution so that equal marriage can't be threatened by future conservative governments. We are proud of ourselves for this, and we should be.

It's disheartening and offensive to see how some on MN have felt the need to scoff at this sense of pride and progress as the "worst of mawkish Irish sentimental self-congratulation," (cheers for that casual stereotype Bathtime Hmm ) to try to minimise Ireland's achievement by changing the conversation to something that the UK has done better (except of course, you haven't done it any better, because women in the corner of this island which the UK still controls don't have access to abortion either).

I also find Bertrand's assertion that "nobody ever died of not being able to get married" to be incredibly dismissive of the fact that studies have found that gay people in Ireland are seven times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual counterparts are. Do you really think there's no link between being knowing that you'll be seen and treated, in law and in society, as a second-class citizen, and having a higher risk of not wanting to be alive? And do you not think that the resounding message of solidarity that over a million people sent on Friday will go some way toward making it less likely that some LGBT people will feel so hopeless and so isolated that depression takes hold and suicide starts to seem like an option?

LucyBabs · 24/05/2015 22:13

Is that a pic of an aborted feotus?? Wow pro life are pulling out all the stops to get the good photos Hmm
Using emotive pics of premature babies isn't going to help with your "cause" bumbly.

bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 22:15

Nah, there have been quite a few recently that I haven't bothered getting involved in. Funny how the same names turn up on them all the time - must be 'manna from heaven' for them too.

And no, not anti vac. Saying it lots doesn't make it true. :)

bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 22:16

Since when do aborted foetuses get hooked up to ventilators? Hmm

crumpet · 24/05/2015 22:20

Well, Twasthecat, I'm withdrawing from the thread in any event. It's gone way into territory beyond the original query (which wasn't even as to why or whether or not the yes campaign should have mentioned the issue, but more of general surprise that as far as I was aware it hadn't come up in the general course), so I'll leave those in full flow to crack on.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 22:22

Actually - used a different one so you could see her face.

'Enotive' if you like. It is an emotive issue. Saying that it's 'simple' is a bit naive.

LucyBabs · 24/05/2015 22:23

Exactly bumbly they don't but premature babies do. Two completely separate issues.

I worry for you if you can't see the difference between a four week aborted foetus and a prematurely born baby
This is the anti choice thing though isn't it? Make people think that women are murdering tiny little babies just cause they want to. Its pathetic

bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 22:25

Right Lucy - cause they just look like 'bundles of cells' when they're in utero don't they?

That's a baby born at 23 weeks by the way - under the abortion limit in the UK.

LucyBabs · 24/05/2015 22:28

Nope i never mentioned bundle of cells bumbly...

PuffinsAreFictitious · 24/05/2015 22:30

Just... There has been a fair amount of talk recently about past evils within the Irish health system, especially when connected to symphysiotomy which was still happening within my lifetime. It's wrong that the health system is still being tarred with that brush though. I think awful stories like Savita Halappanavar's and the young girl who, despite being suicidal, was kept on as an incubator for her unwanted child, due to the lack of clarity within the law. Repealing the 8th would be a positive step for Ireland, but I completely see why that is a battle for another week, and Ireland should rightly be celebrating it's amazing victory right now.

Things in Ireland have changed beyond recognition within my lifetime, from a religion bound, ultra conservative state, it's become a place where a majority of people voted to show that love is equal. I have no doubt that Ireland will do the right thing by women when it comes to a vote to repeal the 8th, I don think the battle for that one will be harder fought though, with people doing the 'tugging at heartstrings' thing with emotive pictures of tiny babies, and misleading pictures of almost full term babies in utero. It might also take longer to convince the men of Ireland that it is also in their interests to take part. I've no doubt that, if the will is there, it will all come out right in the end.

BertrandRussell · 24/05/2015 22:30

You disgust me, bumbleymummy.

bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 22:32

Of course you didn't. Just talked about 4 week old aborted foetuses (do you mean embryos?). I didn't realise you only supported abortion to 4 weeks.

bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 22:33

The feeling is mutual Bert.

bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 22:35

Not sure why people object to photos - do you have to ignore the reality to make it 'simple'? Maybe so.

Annarose2014 · 24/05/2015 22:39

I would be interested Bathtime if you post your strong opinions on these issue on Boards, or just here.