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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Irish abortion laws

999 replies

crumpet · 23/05/2015 16:38

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

OP posts:
jusdepamplemousse · 24/05/2015 15:14

chubby - seriously how dare you tell another woman how she felt and snarkily minimise her fear and suffering. you have no insight and no standing to be able to make such pronouncements. Unbelievably rude and callous.

LaurieMarlow · 24/05/2015 15:16

Bear in mind Chubbychops that the law and general facilities are very different in the North than in the South.

I've lived in the North, the South and in England. I've had one child in England and we will probably move back to the South eventually. But just recently, I've been thinking along the same lines as FannyFifer and have decided its wise to have a second child here before we move. I don't think (southern) Irish hospitals are particularly to be trusted in the area of childbirth. For lots of reasons.

bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 15:21

There was another thread recently discussing maternity services in Ireland and there were several very positive stories. Just as there are positive and negative stories from hospitals all over the UK.

FannyFifer · 24/05/2015 15:23

Yup of course there are positive & negative stories from both the UK & Ireland, however in the UK a pregnant woman's life is not of equal status to the fetus.

bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 15:24

Fanny, the woman's life still takes priority in life threatening situations.

BathtimeFunkster · 24/05/2015 15:42

Yes, but in health threatening situations.

Basically they have to wait until there's a serious risk of you dying before you take priority.

Sometimes they wait too long...

Or your situation just means you will have lifelong health problems. In which case, tough shit.

FannyFifer · 24/05/2015 15:53

Yes but being able to take different actions often prevent serious conditions becoming life threatening.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 24/05/2015 16:44

Yup of course there are positive & negative stories from both the UK & Ireland, however in the UK a pregnant woman's life is not of equal status to the fetus.

This is the point, this is what must change.

MissMillament · 24/05/2015 16:54

OF course you dreamt that, we're not in the fucking dark ages. Christ.

I grew up in Ireland in the fucking dark ages, Madre. And I'm not that old. It wasn't so very long ago really. Even after contraception was technically legal it was virtually impossible outside of Dublin to find a chemist who would sell you condoms or a GP who would prescribe you the pill. Until I left the country in my early 20s, virtually every sexual experience I had was tainted by the fear of unwanted pregnancy. I know things have changed, but not fast enough.

duplodon · 24/05/2015 18:21

Savita died because of medical mismanagement and, I believe, probably racism. Both of those cause harm in the UK, humans cause harm to eachother. I lived in the UK for all my adult life and I have seen horrendous treatment of the vulnerable in situations where systems and resources existed to prevent it. I have even experienced it myself. I have seen incompetence and sometimes ignorance in Ireland but my relatives with mh issues are treated with much greater personhood than in the UK, despite there being lots of lovely glossy documents to guard against it.

Ireland is a tiny rural country that did not have autonomy a mere century ago and with hugely limited resourcing when compared to Ireland. Shaming Ireland for our 'backwardness' is farcical when so much change has been embraced in such a short time frame. I am 37, condoms were illegal in my lifetime. English people shaming the Irish system really need a long hard think about the context in which it arose and a look in the mirror about conservatism and oppression in everyday life in the UK. The UK is absolutely NOT a shining beacon of tolerant liberalism by virtue of not having a fucked up article in a constitution that we just haven't resolved.

And Bertrand, absolutely people would travel to vote in an abortion referendum. I always went home to vote in referenda when eligible to do so.

Twasthecatthatdidit · 24/05/2015 18:32

If your concern is in fact to improve matters in Ireland, rather than pontificating on Mumsnet, emotive pleading to remember Savita is not going to help.
(a) Savita's death was primarily caused by medical negligence, and this will be repeated at every stage by the pro-life lobby. Her death was highly politicised by the initial reporting - with the consent of her husband, and thus morally correct to do so, but there is no doubt it was politicised. Maternal death rates in the uk and Ireland are quite similar, between 8 and 10 per 100,000 births respectively (depending on who's counting), so it is difficult to listen to British posters lamenting how dangerous it is to be a pregnant woman in Ireland. Sepsis, which killed Savita, is the biggest cause of maternal deaths in the UK. Of all those poor women, Savita's name is the only one I know.
(b) Savita's death probably was contributed to by the lack of clarity in the law, and the way this was being interpreted by a conservative and unsatisfactory culture in Galway. However, subsequent legislation has purported to clarify matters, so again it will be argued that no change to the Constitution is necessary.

There are better examples of the current inhumanity of Ireland's law - the poor asylum seeker who was forced to give birth at 24 weeks, rather than being allowed an early and safe abortion, being one. Of course, the simple fact is that Ryanair, and previously ferries, have allowed Ireland to have a ban on abortion without faving the consequences in all but a small amount of cases, and that is a moral hypocrisy in itself.

Still, yesterday and today is no time to be churlish. Two seperate issues.

duplodon · 24/05/2015 18:39

And just to put it into context, Ireland has a smaller population than the county of Yorkshire. It is pretty socially divided as a county. I don't think too many politicians would relish the idea of campaigning on passing controversial issues of social reform like abortion in Yorkshire. Yet Ireland is supposed to have sprung fully formed as a liberal nation from centuries of having no experience of self rule. How likely is that? Do you honestly think if you set Yorkshire free tomorrow to function as a self governing democratic constitutional nation it would immediately get everything right and have amazing world class services and a fully functioning society equivalent to anything the UK could offer within two or three generations? Nonsense. Ireland does amazingly well in our own context, considering.

Annarose2014 · 24/05/2015 18:49

There seems to be several "won't somebody think of the poor Irish women!!!" threads floating about recently.

Hmm
Stokes · 24/05/2015 19:15

Don't there, Annarose?

FlabulousChix · 24/05/2015 19:17

It's a choice thing no ones choice should ever be taken away from them when it's their body

bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 19:37

If it was that simple there would be no issues with abortion at all.

BertrandRussell · 24/05/2015 19:47

"If it was that simple there would be no issues with abortion at all."

It is that simple. You don't have to have to an abortion youdon't want to have, but you have no right to force another woman to have a baby she doesn't want to have.

bumbleymummy · 24/05/2015 19:51

It's really not that simple and it should be fairly obvious why.

BertrandRussell · 24/05/2015 20:08

"It's really not that simple and it should be fairly obvious why."
Well, if you think women should have control of their own bodies it is that simple.......

Twasthecatthatdidit · 24/05/2015 20:12

Bertrand, if those are your views, I suggest you concentrate on campaigning for legalisation of abortion on demand to term in your own country, and let Ireland take care of itself.

BertrandRussell · 24/05/2015 20:23
Grin

Are you deducing from my views that I am not irish? Interesting.

Twasthecatthatdidit · 24/05/2015 20:26

Maybe you're irish - if you are I'm telling you you are a liability in the battle to come.

BathtimeFunkster · 24/05/2015 20:53

Yes, the last thing we need in the "battle to come" is smart women who care.

Hmm

I think Ireland is pushing it with the "new little country" schtick at this point.

You can't be all offended by people (most of whom I suspect were Irish, and not nasty colonialists being mean to plucky little Ireland) saying Ireland is backward and then trot out nonsense about how it's just brand new and like if Yorkshire suddenly became a republic.

MissMillament · 24/05/2015 21:00

You can't be all offended by people (most of whom I suspect were Irish, and not nasty colonialists being mean to plucky little Ireland) saying Ireland is backward and then trot out nonsense about how it's just brand new and like if Yorkshire suddenly became a republic.

This. Exactly this. We were fighting this battle in the 70s and 80s, which may well be before some of the people on this thread were born. But the issues were exactly the same then, the arguments were the same and we marched and we lobbied and we demonstrated, just as people are doing now. So don't tell me that I need to cut poor old Ireland some slack. I've been doing that for forty years now.

LucyBabs · 24/05/2015 21:22

Bumbly please inform us how abortion is not about choice? Have you ever been forced to have an abortion? The choice to be pregnant or not is mine and mine alone. You can't and won't ever force me to be pregnant when I don't want to be.
Ireland will be dragged kicking and screaming in to the 21st century eventually!

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