Irish abortion laws

[crumpet]

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

Anyway - I'll leave you to it. I said earlier I didn't want to get involved in an abortion debate.

I'm going to continue celebrating the decision yesterday. (Even if that does make me 'mawkishly sentimental')

I am not ignoring reality. I am dealing with the reality of women's lives. In an ideal world, abortion would never happen.But If I had to choose between a living woman with family and experiences and connections and a past and an unborn foetus I know which I would save.

Have a great night bumbly

Yes, Irish law allows for the woman's life to be saved over the foetus too.

I think the significant thing is this. I personally would not have an abortion unless the child I was carrying had a condition incompatible with life. Or if I was going to die if I carried on with the pregnancy. That is my personal choice for me. But I do not think I have any right at all to impose my personal view on anyone else. That is where I differ from the "pro life" brigade.

The pro-life brigade in Ireland? Or just worldwide in general?

Anna are the anti choice in Ireland different to the rest of the world?

RIP Savita Halappanavar.

Nope. Pro life everywhere. Why

Another picture people might like to have.

I was just wondering if the topic had moved onto abortion in general worldwide.

Lucy I suspect some of the conservative Americans are quite different, considering one of them said last year that if a woman got pregnant through rape, it couldn't have been rape cos the body wouldn't have allowed a pregnancy or.....it didn't make much sense.

Bertrand do you honestly think there is a single person in Ireland who doesn't know every detail of Savita's face? Who are the photos for?

I think the photo should have a very prominent place on each and every abortion discussion thread, as testament to the consequences of pro-life extremism. She's not alone, either.

It's a statement along the lines of "I'll see your premature baby and raise you a fully-grown woman".

Or perhaps about a woman being denied any bodily autonomy or choice over her own medical treatment, and dying as a result.

Justascreenname - very very well said, you have expressed my feelings much better than I have managed to do!

Annie ???

"Bertrand do you honestly think there is a single person in Ireland who doesn't know every detail of Savita's face? Who are the photos for?"

Who was bumbleymummy's picture for?

100 years is fuck all in reconstituting a country. Shtick my arse. The 70's and 80's are a heartbeat away in terms of social change. Have any of you read Marx? This is not a conservative attitude to take.

The issues were also not exactly the same in the 70's or 80's, bullshit to that. The demographic has changed massively, practices have changed massively, things are always changing. There wasn't even contraception then. There was no divorce. Abortion hasn't changed yet but it has been voted on democratically so unless you disagree with democracy, which isn't actually a particularly liberal viewpoint, anyone who thinks that saying Ireland is a backward place and shouting down the views of women who are irish and who have had abortions is going to support change - especially by making these points by comparing Ireland and England - is spectacularly deluded.

I'd also like you to explain how recognising that Ireland is small, rural and like many places that are small and rural internationally is more conservative than a large, historically wealthy and multicultural country like the UK is 'shtick'. It bloody well isn't. It is a statement of fact and to sneer at your smaller neighbour in this way is generally pretty ignorant and unpleasant. Ireland has seen absolutely HUGE social change, absolutely massive.. I am disgusted at your neocolonial bullshit attitude to denigrating this.

I am disgusted at your neocolonial bullshit attitude to denigrating this.

Fucking neo-colonialism again!

How many English people do you imagine are actually on this thread?

Do you really think there's no link between being knowing that you'll be seen and treated, in law and in society, as a second-class citizen, and having a higher risk of not wanting to be alive?

I don't know.

Does the fact that women are less likely to commit suicide than men mean it's OK for them to be treated, in law, like second class citizens?

There was a lot of talk during the campaign about the significance of the fact of equal treatment under the law.

And I agree with that.

But if it's the case that equality matters and Ireland is now a country that embraces all of its citizens, then we need to remove the 8th amendment. Because that "enshrines" women's status as second class citizens in the constitution.

And no amount of extra amendments saying women have the right to travel (!), to find out certain information (!!) or to stay alive if their pregnancy will kill them (!!!) changes that.

And no, I absolutely do not think that anyone, even Irish women, has or should have, the right to vote to remove basic human rights from other people.

You don't have to be English to be neo-colonial. It's a bit like internalised homophobia. Most of the Irish people who unfavourably compare the UK and Ireland and are shamed by Ireland labour under the misapprehension that with vastly different histories, resources and demography, Ireland should or could be able to be equal to the UK in service provision and social progress.

The significance of the Irish yes vote is not that the Irish are now progressive and socially liberal. It is that a small, rural population with a conservative elderly population voted yes in the same lifetime as being gay was criminal. But hey, nothing changes and we need to make this as negative as we possibly can and ensure we all feel cowed and shamed. I don't care who you are or where you were born, there's a postcolonial influence there.

Only about one person on this thread wants the 8th to remain. That's not in question among most educated women, even if they are prolife. It is a disaster. Not a discussion that needs to be used to put a downer on marriage equality though, even if marriage equality may be a spur to the discussion say, next week.

Mawkish sentimentality and self congratulation insults are the post colonial bits though. Needs to be approached in a less negative way.

I don't care who you are or where you were born, there's a postcolonial influence there.

Oh is there now?

What a load of complete old arse.

And quite "neo-colonial" in its patronising and reductive attitudes to poor little old culchie Ireland.

If you don't think Ireland is great in every way you are a "neo-colonialist" and anyway anything that is wrong with it is the fault of the Britishers.

Genius!