Irish abortion laws

[crumpet]

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

Not saying that born foetuses don't have bodily autonomy . You are suggesting that a woman's right to what happens to her body extends to cover terminating the foetus because 'she doesn't want children' even though termination isn't necessary for her to have bodily autonomy.

Forcibly? These are woman considering abortion post 24 weeks - it's induction without first stoping the foetus' heart.

It's her choice, bumbley. Her decision whether to terminate, or to have the baby induced and put on life support.

One of the reasons women seek abortions is because they don't want to be mothers, they don't want a child, even if it was to be adopted. It's highly likely that she will be aware of the pregnancy long before 24wks, and terminate accordingly. That's her choice. Adoption is also a choice available to her.

I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.

Without getting into the autonomy/foetal rights argument again...I am made so very uncomfortable by the idea that there is ANY merit in v v early section (whether coerced, forced, elective, whatever). That's a terrible situation with likely awful outcomes for both mother and child. I find the idea of this being offered as a 'third way' really abhorrent. And I'm especially sickened as it's not just a theoretical discussion - it recently played out for real in Ireland. A vulnerable woman was messed around, bullied, tricked and coerced into this treatment plan.

Am I wrong to think that anyone - pro life or pro choice - should find it fucking terrifying?

I wonder what became of that poor woman and that very premature child born into state care?

Just want to clarify that my post above doesn't refer to cases where there is a clinical need to deliver early and the woman consents.

And once again, the discussion is focussing on the 1-2% of post 20 week abortions. Not the 90% that happen in the first 12 weeks. Because the anti choicers want to maintain the myth that abortion clinics are full of heavily pregnant women who have changed their minds.

It does seem that way sometimes.

Although I don't know if hard line pro life discerns any difference as by that philosophy life begins when sperm meets egg so perhaps they consider abortion at any gestation the same?

It's not a view I endorse or think has any logical or scientific basis but I think the thing is that some people believe that abortion even pre 12 weeks is no different to killing a person. So it makes no difference from that angle what gestation you're talking about I guess?

Sabrinna, people justify it being 'her choice' with the bodily autonomy argument. Her choice to do what she wants with her body. You are going beyond the bodily autonomy argument. I don't know why you find that difficult to understand.

Bert, another strawman argument. We're talking about it because some people have mentioned that they support the idea that abortion to term should be allowed for any reason - that they think the law should be changed.

jus, well yes, the idea is that life is life. Even scientists don't agree on when life begins. I have more respect for pro-choice people who will acknowledge that they agree that it is terminating a life than those who try to argue that life doesn't begin until some arbitrary point when a woman gives birth eg when the umbilical cord is cut.

Bumbley, that is just your opinion on her bodily autonomy. Since you don't think any woman should be allowed an abortion at any time except under very specific circumstances, you don't believe in her bodily autonomy at all, do you?

I believe she should maintain full bodily autonomy throughout her pregnancy - no ifs, no buts.

Sabrina, that is not my opinion that is what bodily autonomy is.

Seeing as it is unnecessary for her to terminate after 24 weeks in order to maintain bodily autonomy why do you specifically support termination? Your inability to explain/justify this really does speak volumes.

No, that's not what a straw man argument is. You've used the term incorrectly severaL times- why not look it up?

Being able to say "I do not want an induction or a cesarean section" is an essential part of bodily autonomy. As is being able to discuss with your HCPs the best outcome for you.

oK. Bumbleymummy- can you explain why "I would support termination if that is what the woman, in consultation with her HCPs wants". Does not answers our question? And please could you say what "volumes" our inability to explain this to your satisfaction speaks?

Woild it help if you said what you think our explanation would be?

I know perfectly well what it is Bert. Maybe you need to look it up if you are unaware that you have been making them?

You know that abortions post 24 weeks often involve induction? Either that or a GA.

Bumbley - but denying a woman an abortion at any time is denying her bodily autonomy. You are against allowing abortions at any time, except in v rare cases, so I wouldn't expect you to be in favour of maintaining a woman's bodily autonomy after 24wks, as you don't support it pre-24wks.

What you seem to be trying to do is to dissuade Bertrand and I that women should be allowed this bodily autonomy after 24wks. That somehow a woman's rights are curtailed because the foetus is viable, with extreme medical support. And we don't agree with you.

Have already explained why it doesn't answer it. Not going to explain it again. If you haven't got it yet, you won't get it.

"I know perfectly well what it is Bert. Maybe you need to look it up if you are unaware that you have been making them?"

I haven't, you know. Not a single one.

Now, why don't you tell us what you think the answer is to the question you feel isn't being answered. Then maybe I /we could phrase our answers in a way you might find acceptable.

No, denying her ending her pregnancy could be said to be denying her bodily autonomy but she does not have to terminate in order to end her pregnancy.

"What you seem to be trying to do is to dissuade Bertrand and I that women should be allowed this bodily autonomy after 24wks. "

Nope, (again)trying to figure out why you think bodily autonomy can only be attained if the foetus is terminated. You haven't been able to explain that without trying to distort what 'bodily autonomy' actually means.

I don't know what the answer is - you're the ones with that opinion, not me. That's why I'm asking you. Unfortunately you don't seem to know either!

Oh, and you've made a few throughout the thread

The answer is to allow women full bodily autonomy, ie. the Canadian model.

But since you can't give me a single example of an abortion of a healthy foetus after 24wks, it is moot.

Now, why do you deny women full bodily autonomy before 24wks?

Ah, hang on,nothing I might have seen where the problem is!

"Nope, (again)trying to figure out why you think bodily autonomy can only be attained if the foetus is terminated"

I'm not saying that. I am saying that full bodily autonomy can only be attained if whatever the woman wants ( in consultation with her HCPs) , actually happens.. That might be termination. Or something else. The key thing is that it is what happens is what she and her HCPs think is the best outcome for her.

I'm not saying that. I am saying that full bodily autonomy can only be attained if whatever the woman wants ( in consultation with her HCPs) , actually happens.. That might be termination. Or something else. The key thing is that it is what happens is what she and her HCPs think is the best outcome for her.

Hear, hear.

Sabrina, abortion after 24 weeks for non-medical reasons is currently illegal in the UK so where would you like an example from? Also, seeing as you don't think it would ever happen - why the need for a change in the law? And again, why do you think she needs to terminate to gave bodily autonomy?

Bert, bodily autonomy != 'what the woman wants'

Maybe that's where you're both struggling? You don't seem to know what bodily autonomy actually is.

How can you talk about knowing what bodily autonomy is, bumbley, when you would deny women all bodily autonomy during pregnancy?

Of course having bodily autonomy means "what the woman wants" - it's what the word 'autonomy' means.

why the need for a change in the law?

I answered this at 10.03 this morning - not changed my mind since then.

Well Sabrina, you seem to think it extends beyond a woman's right to decide what happens to her own body which it does not.