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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Irish abortion laws

999 replies

crumpet · 23/05/2015 16:38

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

OP posts:
SabrinnaOfDystopia · 31/05/2015 00:41

It's possible sure - if she's willing to have the baby put in incubator, and then be adopted.

Just out of interest, how many terminations of healthy babies have you heard of beyond 24 wks?

BertrandRussell · 31/05/2015 05:04

I'll answer your question again, bumbleymummy. I don't know why a woman might make that decision. There are too few of them to generalise about, and I don't, as far as i know, know any personally. But I trust that any woman who does make the decision to terminate at this stage will have reasons which she has discussed with her HCPs and which mean that it is the right decision for her.

Please will you explain the link you made between people who are pro choice and benefit bashing?

bumbleymummy · 31/05/2015 07:59

Sabrina, those are both things that happen after the baby is born. That's not to do with bodily autonomy.

We've already said that we're talking about this in theory. People have said they support the idea of abortion being available to term for any reason. What's the point in suggesting a change if you don't think it would ever be used? The idea is that if the situation did arise, you would support it.

Again Bert, the question is not 'why do you think a woman would have a late termination of a healthy foetus' It is 'why do you specifically support termination when it isn't necessary at that stage for a woman to have bodily autonomy.

I think you realise that and are just being deliberately obtuse. I'm just going to assume that you can't/won't answer it. That says a lot. Have a good day. I've wasted enough time on you.

You asked the exact same question yesterday. I answered it at 16:02. You don't get a different answer because you don't like that one.

BertrandRussell · 31/05/2015 08:08

"why do you specifically support termination when it isn't necessary at that stage for a woman to have bodily autonomy."

I really must be expressing myself badly. I'll try again. I don't know why a woman would want to choose termination at this stage-but I will support her right to choose. As I said, the choice is made by so very few people that it is impossible to generalise. But I trust a woman and her HCP to make the decision that is right for her. Whatever that decision is. Does that answer your question? If it doesn't I am not being deliberately obtuse- I am genuinely missing something.

BertrandRussell · 31/05/2015 08:14

"some people who claim to be pro-choice criticise the measures (financial support) that actually would allow women to have more choices. A bit hypocritical don't you think?"

Is this the answer you mean? When asked what you meant by "sorry but very few people campaigning for abortion rights are clamouring to help end these issues. In fact, you often find the same vehemently pro-choice people on benefit bashing tbreads"?

bumbleymummy · 31/05/2015 08:19

No, you're not expressing yourself badly. You're not answering the question that was asked. I guess you can't. That says a lot.

BertrandRussell · 31/05/2015 08:23

I would support termination if that was the choice the woman and her HCPs made for her becuase I trust them to make the best decision for her.

Is that better? Because if it isn't I don't understand the question

bumbleymummy · 31/05/2015 09:13

The question is why you specifically support termination rather than simply supporting the right of a woman to end a pregnancy.

Moving on.

I don't think abortion to term for any reason will be introduced to the UK. People who support this idea can't even explain why they think it is necessary because termination isn't necessary post 24 weeks for a woman to have bodily autonomy. I think it is more likely that the abortion limit in the UK will be reduced.

Although I think many people in Ireland do want some access to abortion I think it is mainly for reasons such as FFA or rape. I don't think the majority of people want a situation like the UK where it is pretty much 'abortion on demand'.

BertrandRussell · 31/05/2015 09:24

"The question is why you specifically support termination rather than simply supporting the right of a woman to end a pregnancy"

And the answer is I would support it if that was what the woman and her HCP thought was best for her. How can I be clearer than that?

Now will you try to be as clear about your comments on some pro choice supporters being benefit bashers?

bumbleymummy · 31/05/2015 09:26

No, that's stating your position not explaining why.

"I answered it at 16:02. You don't get a different answer because you don't like that one."

BertrandRussell · 31/05/2015 09:36

I think that "because I think women have the right to choose" is an answer to "why" isn't it? If it isn't, what sort of answer are you looking for?

And it's not that I don't like your 16.02 answer- it's just that it isn't an answer!

bumbleymummy · 31/05/2015 09:44

No, you're not explaining why you think they have a right to choose when it's not necessary for bodily autonomy.

Not answering you again - read the posts before and after 16.02. I answered - it's as simple as what I said. You're trying to read more into it/twist it (as usual). It's boring and it's not advancing the discussion at all.

BertrandRussell · 31/05/2015 09:54

explaining why you think they have a right to choose when it's not necessary for bodily autonomy."

Because that is the philosophical position I hold. The woman's right to choose in consultation with her HCPs. Why do I hold that philosophical position? I'm not sure anyone can give a deinitive answer to that one. My upbringing, life experience, reading, thinking, temperament, personality- all of those went into it. No one simple answer......

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 31/05/2015 09:56

Sorry bumbley, but a woman having bodily autonomy means she decides the outcome of her pregnancy, it's not necessarily about just making the pregnancy go away - it means she doesn't want to have a child.

If she wanted to have the child adopted, then she can make that decision.

I know this goes against your personal principles, but it's not your decision to make for another woman.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 31/05/2015 10:03

People have said they support the idea of abortion being available to term for any reason. What's the point in suggesting a change if you don't think it would ever be used?

I can think of 3 reasons:

To protect women's rights of autonomy over her own body throughout the entire pregnancy.

To stop cases like THIS arising.

To stop the criticisms towards women over whether their abortion was for a worthy enough reason.

bumbleymummy · 31/05/2015 10:04

"a woman having bodily autonomy means she decides the outcome of her pregnancy"

No it doesn't . It is the right for a woman to have control over her own body. After 24 weeks the right to control her own body does not require the foetus to be terminated.

If you go into the territory that a woman can decide she 'doesn't want a child' then why can't women also decide that about born babies/children?

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 31/05/2015 10:09

Of course it does. You obviously have a very strange idea of bodily autonomy - but the mother has it for the duration of the pregnancy, the baby doesn't have autonomy whilst inside the mother's body.

Born children have bodily autonomy, because they're born.

bumbleymummy · 31/05/2015 10:11

That link is to a case where an abortion was done for medical reasons. (Cleft lip and palate) It's questioning whether or not that can be considered a 'severe physical disability' in accordance with the law.

"a post-24 week abortion can only take place if "there is substantial risk that if the child is born it would suffer from severe physical or mental disabilities"."

bumbleymummy · 31/05/2015 10:13

Actually Sabrinna, it's you with the strange idea of bodily autonomy that stretches beyond what a woman can do with her body to whether 'she wants a child'.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 31/05/2015 10:14

Yes - and they tried to drag that doctor into court for it. In the end the CPS decided not to prosecute, but the doctor was identified in the press - not a good thing in my view, although I'm sure you'd disagree.

That is why I support the Canadian model.

bumbleymummy · 31/05/2015 10:16

The idea being that he broke the current law in the UK.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 31/05/2015 10:16

And isn't that what abortion is all about, bumbley - whether she wants a child, or can support a child or not? It's not just about the 9months being pregnant is it?

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 31/05/2015 10:18

The idea being that he broke the current law in the UK.

Exactly. You asked me why I'd want the law changed - and that's an example of why, so that things like that don't happen.

bumbleymummy · 31/05/2015 10:20

Sabrina, but that's not 'bodily autonomy'. Whether you want a child does not fall under 'bodily autonomy' otherwise on grounds of 'bodily autonomy' a woman could decide she doesn't want her born babies/children.

So that people can abort foetuses without severe disabilities?

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 31/05/2015 10:24

Bumbley - born children have bodily autonomy. That is without question.

A foetus, inside the body of it's mother does not. The mother has bodily autonomy. Full stop.

You trying to twist this into (forcibly?) inducing women at 24wks and then putting the baby onto life support, is somewhat gruesome imo.