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AIBU?

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Original poster

Irish abortion laws

999 replies

crumpet · 23/05/2015 16:38

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 30/05/2015 10:30

Yes, but at that point you've gone beyond the bodily autonomy argument. Why should she have the right to determine the right to life of a separate entity that does not need her to survive?

BobAteTheHamster · 30/05/2015 10:32

Ok I have name changed to share some personal experience. I had a termination of a much wanted pregnancy for a fatal fetal abnormality a few years back. The problems were dectected pretty early on at the 12 week scan though it took several weeks after that for the diagnosis to be conclusive.

Understandably I was very upset by what happened (though I hasten to add that for me a late miscarriage or still birth would have been at least as traumatic and having to continue with a hopeless pregnancy much worse) and I ended up joining a support forum for women with similar issues.

Listening to their accounts made me far more resolutely pro choice than I had been previously. Most of them were from the US where the laws are less restrictive than Ireland but the problems that were being caused by the anti abortion laws and atmosphere were immense.

One lady had a baby where the sack had burst early in pregnancy and she had waited past whatever the abortion limit was in that particular state to decide what to do. The baby didn't develop properly and she started to develop a temperature and no one would induce the birth early because this would have lead to the death of the baby (who was going to die anyway). She kept posting in a terrible state concerned that the infection she was devloping would leave her infertile. Eventually someone did induce the labor and fortunately she seemed ok.

Anyway there were lots of similar horror stories. The law is a blunt, slow instrument. When a pregnancy goes wrong it is a messy, complicated business and women and doctors need to be allowedto exercise their judgement free from fear of legal sanction.

bumbleymummy · 30/05/2015 10:32

bemore, apparently these are 'vanishingly rare' situations that would never actually happen anyway because no woman would ever want to terminate a healthy pregnancy post-24 weeks. So I don't see the state suddenly becoming flooded with 'possibly disabled' children.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 30/05/2015 10:33

If a 24wk old baby is induced, you can be damn sure it needed the mother to survive. It will then need serious medical support and incubation to survve at all at that age.

It is a separate entity on induction, or on birth. Once it is out of the woman's body.

bumbleymummy · 30/05/2015 10:34

Bob, in situations like that woman's a termination would legally have been allowed in Ireland because the woman's life was at risk.

Sorry to hear about your baby Thanks

Alisvolatpropiis · 30/05/2015 10:35

The statistics back up that it is rare, so what exactly is your point?

A 24 week foetus can only survive with significant medical intervention, it does for all intents and purposes still rely on the mother to survive at that point in gestation.

bumbleymummy · 30/05/2015 10:36

Yes Sabrinna, but it will have a chance of living.

bumbleymummy · 30/05/2015 10:38

"A 24 week foetus can only survive with significant medical intervention, it does for all intents and purposes still rely on the mother to survive at that point in gestation."

Some babies born at full term need significant medical intervention. What's your point here? That a baby has to be able to survive independently without medical intervention to be considered a life?

bumbleymummy · 30/05/2015 10:39

And my point is trying to figure out why people say they support it when it doesn't seem to be a case of 'bodily autonomy' at that point.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 30/05/2015 10:39

bemorecat, bumbley's on all 4 abortion threads currently in active convos, including the one that was for women who have experienced abortions. She can't leave it alone.

Anyway, I'm bowing out for now - busy weekend.

BertrandRussell · 30/05/2015 10:40

Why do all discussions about abortion focus on the 10% that take place after 12 weeks?

bumbleymummy · 30/05/2015 10:41

Have a nice weekend. :)

bumbleymummy · 30/05/2015 10:43

I'm also on threads about ice cream, cooking white sauces/gravy and badgers! :)

BobAteTheHamster · 30/05/2015 10:49

Bumbleymummy, you have missed the point.

Doctor's don't make the same decisions when they are afraid of going to jail.

That lady's induction/abortion was also legal in the US but they were putting it off causing her immense stress until it was inarguable that her life was at risk.

By doing that her chance of having any more children was definitely put at risk (pelvic infections cause infertitlity) and her life was put at risk anyway because infections aren't an exact science.

With a more flexible legal framework as in the UK she and her doctor's could have just decided in favour of a termination once they felt it best.

jusdepamplemousse · 30/05/2015 10:49

(That reads like you are on a thread about cooking gravy and badgers Grin)

jusdepamplemousse · 30/05/2015 10:50

Sorry that's probably a totally inappropriate post on this thread but I couldn't stop myself

jusdepamplemousse · 30/05/2015 10:50

As you were

Alisvolatpropiis · 30/05/2015 10:52

The fact that some full term babies are ill at the point of birth isn't really relevant though, is it.

I'm not sure why you are so incredibly fixated with late abortions when the overwhelming majority take place much earlier in pregnancy.

bumbleymummy · 30/05/2015 10:54

Bob, except they don't need to put it off. She wants the abortion, they are perfectly capable of saying her life was at risk (which it was). Who is going to sue them?

bumbleymummy · 30/05/2015 10:54

Grin jus. Oops!

BobAteTheHamster · 30/05/2015 10:56

Bertrand, it is because lots of people think the baby is alive later in the pregnancy but not that many people think that the baby is alive from the moment of conception.

What i have been trying to say is that these situations that arise late in pregnancy are so awful and complicated and fast moving that the last thing needed is an onerous legal framework making a bad situation worse.

bumbleymummy · 30/05/2015 10:59

Alis,

"A 24 week foetus can only survive with significant medical intervention, it does for all intents and purposes still rely on the mother to survive at that point in gestation."

I'm trying to figure out what your point in posting about them needing medical intervention was.

I'm not 'fixated' on them. It's just the point of the discussion we have reached because some people are saying they support the right to have an abortion to term but haven't explained why seeing as the woman's bodily autonomy at this point doesn't require the foetus to be terminated - they are not mutually exclusive at this point.

BobAteTheHamster · 30/05/2015 11:03

Oh and I am definitely in favour of early abortion being legal as well. I always have been.

It is just that my own experiences and reading those of women in the US have made me realise how important it is that women are able to make choices about their medical treatment later in preganancy too and how anti abortion legislation can restrict this.

Alisvolatpropiis · 30/05/2015 11:07

You were arguing women should be induced to give the foetus a "chance at life" as though by merely being born they will have such a chance. They do not. A foetus delivered at 24 weeks has virtually no chance of survival without medical intervention.

I do not think the government itself would go for an option which would be an extra burden on the NHS and care system, both of which are struggling.

A 24 week foetus born to parents to want that baby is one thing, a 24 week foetus born and immediately placed in the care system is entirely different.

bumbleymummy · 30/05/2015 11:44

Alis "as though by merely being born they will have such a chance"

Well they will have a chance compared to no chance if they are aborted.

" A foetus delivered at 24 weeks has virtually no chance of survival without medical intervention."

Again you're bringing in medical intervention. What is your point? That we shouldn't try to save a life if it requires medical intervention?

Again, these are apparently 'vanishingly rare' /entirely hypothetical situations because a woman would not abort a healthy foetus past 24 weeks. So is your argument for supporting abortion to term now based on the (hypothetical) strain it would have on the NHS rather than bodily autonomy for the woman? Doesn't they then raise issues about whether or not a child should be allowed to be born if they know it will have health conditions that will make it dependent on the NHS?