Irish abortion laws

[crumpet]

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

As in, the people who are now actually prevented from travelling are those for whom travel itself poses a difficulty (eg cannot afford it, would have difficulty reentering the country, too young to travel alone).

Whether or not anyone should have to travel is an entirely different issue, and one where I agree entirely with Bertrand.

AFAIK legal minors in state care have been brought abroad for abortion services.

And I would stay in England for a few days after as I wouldn't want to face seeking healthcare for abortion complications here either. Luckily I could afford that. I'd say at least half the population couldn't though.

AFAIK legal minors in state care have been brought abroad for abortion services.

Yes, that was the C Case, wasn't it?

Andrew I have seen Irish pols banging on about horrible heathen England allowing such things...

Really, Andrew? Which politicians are they? In my experience most Irish politicians won't touch abortion debate with a barge pole, which is why change is so slow in coming. And I'd be shocked, truly shocked, to hear an elected representative refer to "horrible heathen England". Are you certain you're not mistaking something you've actually heard, with your own imaginings of how people in Ireland talk about abortion, and about England? Because it certainly isn't familiar to me here in, you know, Ireland.

"In my experience most Irish politicians won't touch abortion debate with a barge pole, which is why change is so slow in coming."

Yup, a friend of mine's mum was involved in the Crisis Pregnancy Agency years back and I remember her telling me in the 90s that a majority of politicians even back then agreed that our abortion regime was a disgrace but none of them were willing to stick their heads over the parapet and actually do something about it/ risk the wrath of the social conservatives.

I'm hoping after this week's trouncing of the Iona brigade that they'll start to see that they really are a bitter, vocal minority who don't reflect the feelings of most people in Ireland on social issues.

Yes, hopefully some politicians will now feel emboldened.

Yes, there is a hell of a lot of supposition.

I would be extremely shocked to hear of any mainstream politicians calling England heathen. The reason we have a constitutional right to information and travel was because in 1992 politicians knew fine well the substantive issue would be defeated and they didn't want a repeat of the Xcase.

The problem is, and remains, the 8th. It is a travesty and nearly everyone under a certain age wants it gone apart from a vocal hating minority.

And incidentally, there has been huge discussion on abortion reform in the Irish media this week in the wake of the yes vote and one of the major political parties is discussing having a referendum as part of its election platform, so the very premise of the thread is being proved wrong.

Actually just looking at it, this was reported in Feb:www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/News/article1519470.ece. It is just on the airwaves today.

Duplo, the 8th doesn't mention anything about specific drugs. That's why I was asking. What difference does it make whether you're using an arbortifacient if the baby has died? It's not an abortion.

"What difference does it make whether you're using an arbortifacient if the baby has died? It's not an abortion."

Presumably the issue was that the drug wasn't licensed for use in the country because its primary use is an abortifacient, and hence the doctors couldn't access/use it. And the reason for it not being licensed would be the 8th.

The 8th doesn't mention very much other than that the foetus and woman have equal rights, it's what's implied by that that causes problems. It doesn't explicitly mention leaving corpses on life support either, but there you go.

I remember there was a lot of discussion about that case at the time Leedy and many pro-choice people were in the 'it's worth a try' camp.

Of course most feminists agree, most Irish people agree. Have you ever tried to change a constitution, and bring in new legislation? Its hard fuckign work.

And we are not doing enough in England/Wales/Scotland, did you who are not in Ireland (Republic or NI) know that abortion is not available on the NHS, not just for Irish women but for NI women?

Yes ladies and gentlemen we can look at Ireland and nod that we have abortion and they don't, but one cold hard fact, British women who have the misfortune to find themselves requiring an abortion in Britain cannot access it without crossing water, and if they do cross water they have to pay.

Nobody under the age of 65 now voted for the 8th.

I don't think that can be true. My parents are 61.

Admittedly they voted against it, but they did have a vote. I think they were in their late 20s at the time.

Am I getting my sums totally wrong here, or is it more like nobody under about 58?

As for only being allowed to express an opinion on the matter if it "impacts" you.

You know what, I will always be "impacted" by having to travel to England for an abortion after I was raped when I was 18.

So too bad if it is "neo-colonislist" of me to call the country that inflicted that on me backward and misogynist. It is as far as that goes.

I'm still a citizen of that country, and I've lived in it for most of my life, so I will continue to have and express an opinion on the matter, even if I don't have a vote (or functioning ovaries) at the point when there is another referendum.

I might well have both.

British women who have the misfortune to find themselves requiring an abortion in Britain cannot access it without crossing water, and if they do cross water they have to pay.

Not quite.

British or Irish women who find themselves needing an abortion in the United Kingdom must travel to Britain, where abortion is available.

Furthermore, despite paying into the NHS, women living in Northern Ireland who travel to Britain for abortions must pay for them.

Wasn't it '83? So around 50?

Oh sorry, I see that you had the having to pay thing covered.

I don't think that can be true. My parents are 61.

Argh, no, I got my sums wrong, apologies. 18 when the referendum happened -> 60 today.

I am so sorry that you were one of the women who had to "travel", as we so euphemistically put it, and I can see why you're furious. I just thought really, this last weekend was not the time to belittle the equal marriage achievement because we haven't sorted out reproductive rights yet, which is what it sounded like (I know you said you were pleased but then kept talking about how it was "bittersweet" and "mawkish" and "self-congratulatory" etc. because we still have the abortion ban ), rather than going "right, we've done that, brilliant, now time to get cracking on the 8th" as most people I know have (and yes, that includes many women who've had abortions too).

Like, let people be happy about one thing first, for a little while. I had friends who cried with happiness this weekend, I don't think they're all delusional about the "real issues" facing Ireland. And while I do think the 8th is backward and misogynist, I don't think the country as a whole is backward and misogynist, and I think there's a real movement for change here right now.

Not 60, 50! Dear god, first I can't add, now I can't type.

The main point stands though that there is almost nobody who is still of reproductive age today who actually voted for the bloody thing.

18 year olds would have been born in '65 which would make them 50 now...

Sorry - x-post!

I'm not entirely sure if that makes a difference though - whether they are off reproductive age now or not. They were of reproductive age when they voted and may vote the same way now and there will be those who are of reproductive age now who would vote for it too.

Of not off!

And a major problem also being that really doctors shouldn't have to be involved in interpreting constitutional law in the course of providing care for a woman. Their overriding concern should be the wellbeing of the woman - not just her safety, nor the potential for litigation based on a constitutional amendment that is unfit for purpose. Most of the major cases where the law has been invoked have arisen because of the lack of clarity of its wording which allows far too much to be implied.

"there will be those who are of reproductive age now who would vote for it too"

A whole lot fewer, though, I'd imagine.

The whole reason why the Pro-Life Amendment campaign took off was because the organizers saw what was happening with legislation in other countries and saw the tide of opinion changing - they wanted to copper-fasten it into the constitution while there was still a majority in favour of the ban. I really do not think it would pass if it was put to a referendum now.

Also, what duplodon said.