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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Irish abortion laws

999 replies

crumpet · 23/05/2015 16:38

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

OP posts:
BathtimeFunkster · 25/05/2015 16:39

It was the #hometovote thing I found mawkish and self-congratulatory.

Not the yes vote, or any of the celebrations thereof.

I don't know, I guess I can be a right curmudgeon, but I found the "look at me, I'm voting" thing irritating, particularly as I wondered how many of them genuinely had a right to vote.

My grandmother can barely walk and is basically an invalid, but she also made an arduous journey to cast her yes vote.

To my mind it was her, and people like her around the country, that were really the elven horde that you'd forgotten about from the first act - the fundamentally decent people, the unsexy middle aged and elderly Catholics who aren't on Twitter and don't take selfies, but who were the ones who made the weekend into "Fuck YEAH" and not a grudging "yes, OK, but don't rub it in our faces."

But I accept that I was mostly alone in my irritation.

bumbleymummy · 25/05/2015 16:44

I don't know Leedy. Even though more people would probably consider abortion acceptable in restricted circumstances eg FFA I'm not sure they would be in favour of a UK-like law. I could be wrong but that's just the feeling I get from my Irish friends/family and that's really not coming from an overly religious position.

leedy · 25/05/2015 16:47

"as I wondered how many of them genuinely had a right to vote"

Why on earth would somebody spend loads of money to pretend to vote? ("I flew home from Thailand so I could take a selfie of myself not actually voting! That's all we young people care about! The selfies!"). I think that's unnecessarily cynical. Why shouldn't young people be both happy to vote and genuinely politically engaged?

There's also been some really nice discussion of the "quiet Yes" vote, like your gran, I don't think that's been ignored at all, particularly after the result.

leedy · 25/05/2015 16:49

But bumbleymummy, as I have said repeatedly, I am not talking about the details of the law, or whether it'll be like the UK, or Canada, or Holland, or wherever. I'm talking about removing the constitutional "protection of the unborn" from the constitution. It shouldn't be there, regardless of what you think the legislation should look like.

bumbleymummy · 25/05/2015 16:52

Sorry for the confusion - that was in response to wanting to copper-fasten it while the majority were still in favour of the ban. I'm not sure you've necessarily lost that majority.

Re removing it from the constitution - I guess the worry may still be what it was then.

MissMillament · 25/05/2015 16:58

*Nobody under the age of 65 now voted for the 8th.

confused

I don't think that can be true. My parents are 61.

Admittedly they voted against it, but they did have a vote. I think they were in their late 20s at the time.

Am I getting my sums totally wrong here, or is it more like nobody under about 58?*

I am 50. I voted! I was 18 at the time and I didn't just vote, I campaigned, I leafleted outside our parish church in the west of Ireland (alongside the amazing Nell McCafferty which was an awesome moment in our small village), I marched and I demonstrated. It was personally quite difficult for me, because I did live in a small village and my parents were none too pleased by my high profile locally on the issue.
And frankly, I feel well fucked off by some of the people on this thread that would now deny me the right to have an opinion on the subject.

leedy · 25/05/2015 17:04

I think we have completely confirmed that I can't add. :(

Also as an aside, yay, Nell McCafferty. Have you seen the video of her reading 50 Shades of Grey? I was nearly sick from laughing.

I don't think most people are complaining about people like you who have lived here and were involved in campaigning etc. having an opinion, it's more the I CAN'T BELIEVE THE BARBARIANS OVER THERE HAVE GAY MARRIAGE WHEN THEY ARE ALL PRO-LIFE CATHOLICS WE MUST RESCUE THE IRISH WOMEN FROM THEMSELVES brigade that's pissing me off. As I said above, the Americans in particular.

duplodon · 25/05/2015 17:06

No one is denying you a right to have an opinion ffs. I just don't agree with Ireland bashing as the way forward.

BathtimeFunkster · 25/05/2015 17:06

I didn't think they were pretending to vote, I thought (and still think) many of them were partaking in the Irish tradition of maintaining a voting registration in your Mammy's when you haven't lived there for years.

There was a lot of talk on Twitter pre-election about registering yourself "back home" if you had an address you could use, regardless of where you lived.

I was concerned that in the event of a close vote for Yes, there might be questions raised about how many people who were no longer resident had been able to register when they shouldn't have, and what the implications would be.

I was also worried about what the numbers of non-tweeting No voters, who had similarly maintained registration not entirely truthfully, might be, and whether that might swing it.

I wondered was I wrong to have honestly deregistered when I left the country, because I could have travelled if I'd realised it was now OK to live outside Ireland and vote in referendums.

It was polling day. It was tense. The message was that turnout in Dublin wasn't high enough.

But yeah, I found it a bit nauseating.

MissMillament · 25/05/2015 17:07

Also as an aside, yay, Nell McCafferty. Have you seen the video of her reading 50 Shades of Grey? I was nearly sick from laughing.

I am going off to search Youtube right now!

ems942 · 25/05/2015 17:09

Most abortions generally aren't for medical complications- if you want an abortion before 12 weeks, access to illegal mifepristerone and mifepristol tablets is fairly straightforward and cost effective in ireland. There are also charities who will help with the cost of going to England after 12 weeks. Therefore, if faced with a crisis pregnancy, termination is available, albeit illegally. (I live in Northern Ireland).

leedy · 25/05/2015 17:11

"Therefore, if faced with a crisis pregnancy, termination is available, albeit illegally"

It's hardly ideal, though, is it? "Oh well, not really a problem, you can always get a charity to pay for you to travel to a different country for a medical procedure, or you can buy illegal drugs off the internet". FFS.

LucyBabs · 25/05/2015 17:14

I think that's the point ems is making

jusdepamplemousse · 25/05/2015 17:17

Very much less than ideal. I shudder at how dangerous mail order medication is.

And there are charities which can / might help. Not will help. Big distinction. Not to take away from their hard and valuable work. But it should not be a matter of charity.

BathtimeFunkster · 25/05/2015 17:26

Of course - mail order abortion pills!

That wasn't a thing years ago. You had to find the money to travel somehow.

Now young girls without means are very likely to try this.

They must already be doing it.

:(

Oh god.

Unsupervised illegal abortions. :( :(

I might cry.

leedy · 25/05/2015 17:31

Yup, they're already doing it, I know several people who have done so. In fairness in all cases they got exactly the medication they thought they were getting and there were no complications, but .. yeah. Not great.

BruthasTortoise · 25/05/2015 17:37

I know two women who have ordered abortion pills online - one had no issue, the other took an infection which could've had serious repercussions had she not decided to seek medical treatment. I'm from NI, I am a British citizen, I pay taxes to the British treasury and yet I can not have a legal abortion after 9 weeks in my home country. I suppose though if they legalise abortion in the South it would be handier getting the train to Dundalk than a plane to Liverpool...

duplodon · 25/05/2015 17:39

It is truly dire.

I feel the issue that a woman has no right to informed consent in labour and delivery is equally dire. My sister was so anxious about it during her pregnancy. Having been in a situation myself where I felt voiceless in labour and how triggering that was to me as someone with a trauma history, I just can't imagine the potential damage where someone is denying consent for a vaginal procedure and this is being overriden. It is so, so wrong.

bumbleymummy · 25/05/2015 17:42

No right to informed consent during labour and delivery?

leedy · 25/05/2015 17:46

"No right to informed consent during labour and delivery?"

Not if there's risk to "the unborn". The eighth again, ladies and gentlemen.

jusdepamplemousse · 25/05/2015 17:46

Absolutely already happens.

I think sometimes the pills don't work either. But with no follow up medical care you might not know if they worked or not?

Also, I have heard plenty of anecdotal evidence of women being treated like shit at hospitals here having sought help post abortion Sad.

I mean the thing is - women will always have abortions. Legally or illegally, safe or not. This is why I can't understand a viewpoint supporting abortion ban. Even if you sincerely and deeply hold anti choice beliefs - all such a system means is that women are at risk, not that abortion doesn't happen.

duplodon · 25/05/2015 17:47

nocountryforpregnantwomen.blogspot.ie/2014/08/not-consent-issue.html

Read it and, literally, weep.

bumbleymummy · 25/05/2015 17:50

Leedy - why would a woman giving birth want to put her child at risk?

bumbleymummy · 25/05/2015 17:55

Hold on duplo - are you saying that midwives can't make informed decisions? Surely we do somewhat place ourselves in their hands and trust their judgement.

Interesting that the blog seems to be against Active Management of Labour and hurrying women along. Someone on another thread recently has been going on about how wonderful it is.

bumbleymummy · 25/05/2015 17:57

You could argue that what the midwife did actually put the baby at risk...prolapsed cord resulting in ECS.

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